Smoking...

[fastpitch17]

More staggering statistics from todays JakPost on the (net) impact of smoking on the RI economy:

Though the government often argues that the tobacco industry brings much-needed revenue to the country, with it targeting to collect Rp 148.86 trillion from tobacco excise this year, the economic loss from tobacco consumption is actually much greater.

In 2013, the total loss due to tobacco consumption hit Rp 378.75 trillion, according to the Health Ministry, resulting from lost productivity due to illness, disability and premature death in youth and medical expenses.

Indonesia’s economy is also expected to lose Rp 59,580 trillion (US$4.5 trillion) by 2030 from tobacco-related diseases.

Those numbers really do beggar belief.

Actually, lost productivity due to illness, disability and premature death in youth and medical expenses is attributed to the smoking cause if the victims just smoked. Not that there was any proof to the matter. With the lack of autopsies here, how would the experts know what killed someone. These figures are a lot like the alcohol related deaths in the US. If they had a drink it is alcohol related whether it contributed to the death or not.

 

[HappyMan]

Sure. So why is there such a huge cloud? And does it really 'feel' the same as smoking? It's weird that countries like Singapore banned it altogether?

I think the visibility of vapor is greater because the particle size is larger. So, on an equal size of inhale and exhale as one would do for a cigarette, the edges of the cloud that would be invisible with smoke are visible with the vapor. Also, as vapor is less of an irritant than smoke, some vapers take much larger drags from a vaporizer than they would from a cigarette. More in, more out.

I don't think it feels the same. There is less of a burn in the back of the throat, which is referred to as throat hit. Unfortunately, I rather like that burning feeling in the back of my throat, so I tend to use liquids with a lot of menthol. Actually, cranking up the nicotine also helps with the throat hit. I guess a comparison might be like the difference between light cigarettes and normal cigarettes. Some people, like me, just prefer the harshness of the normal cigarettes. The harshest vape I've had is still nothing compared to a "heavy" or handrolled cigarette.

I've just had a look at the Singapore story. They are also banning nicotine patches, chewing tobacco, snuff, and anything else that delivers nicotine but is not a cigarette, looks like. They said it was about keeping the number of nicotine consumers down in general, by eliminating the emerging market for nicotine products. If they were doing away with the actual cigarettes as well, I wouldn't think they were full of it.

If you surveyed Indonesians I'm sure most of them would tell you that vaping is more harmful than smoking. There was a very visible series of stories on the news a while back, quoting discredited studies. Can't say I'm impressed. Someone mentioned a sky news story they saw recently. I was just looking at one from the Telegraph... headline is "Vaping As Bad For The Heart As Smoking..." Open it and the first line is "vaping could be as bad as smoking for the heart, research suggests." Click bait headline anyone? If you read through the whole of the article, it is disclosed that nicotine, the chemical we smokers/nicotine vapers are all addicted to... drumroll... is not good for the heart! What a revelation! The article also mentions that caffeine has a similar effect. No mention is made of the many carcinogens contained in cigarette smoke that are absent in vapor. No mention is made of the harmful effects that inhaling tar has upon the lungs.

When people treat such "news" as useful or insightful, I assume that they either: A, Are so vehemently opposed to smoking/nicotine consumption that they are also opposed to any "half measures" which people might use to reduce harm, B, Have a personal interest in preserving the status quo for tobacco companies, C, Of the type that can't/won't be bothered to understand what particular bit of gossip they are passing along, just so long as it might be of interest to someone. Thoroughly unimpressive.

 

[londo_edan]

Actually, lost productivity due to illness, disability and premature death in youth and medical expenses is attributed to the smoking cause if the victims just smoked. Not that there was any proof to the matter. With the lack of autopsies here, how would the experts know what killed someone. These figures are a lot like the alcohol related deaths in the US. If they had a drink it is alcohol related whether it contributed to the death or not.

You're argument sounds rather like denial to me.

There is no doubt that smoking, and to a lesser extent drinking, contributes to illness, premature death, low birth rates, etc etc (its a long list).

I'm pretty sure that the NHS (in the UK) and their equivalents, are able to quantify what these impacts are in terms of decreased and impaired life expectancy. From those estimates its possible to quantify, economically, the deleterious impact of smoking and drinking on a society. Might not be spot on but there you go, stats are like that.

 

[fastpitch17]

You're argument sounds rather like denial to me.

There is no doubt that smoking, and to a lesser extent drinking, contributes to illness, premature death, low birth rates, etc etc (its a long list).

I'm pretty sure that the NHS (in the UK) and their equivalents, are able to quantify what these impacts are in terms of decreased and impaired life expectancy. From those estimates its possible to quantify, economically, the deleterious impact of smoking and drinking on a society. Might not be spot on but there you go, stats are like that.

I don't see where I was in denial at all. Just saying that many of these same things could very well have been caused by other things but because the person smoked, they are added to the figures. I do think we are talking Indonesia and stats from other countries are not being questioned. Of course, if you think Indonesia is above board and everything, go for it.

 

[londo_edan]

To put it another way - I can see why the tobacco and drinks industries (in RI, the US and elsewhere) would tend to under-estimate the rate of death, disease and impaired lives due to their products (they've been doing this for decades). But I cannot see why governments and the relevant health ministries would significantly over-estimate the effects. Perhaps there might be a tendency to exaggerate a bit w.r.t. increasing their budgets, but overall I tend to trust the figures on death rates, primary causes etc that a Health Ministry would publish.

 

[fastpitch17]

but overall I tend to trust the figures on death rates, primary causes etc that a Health Ministry would publish.

.

Good for you. I am sure the Health Ministry is full of highly qualified individuals who obtained their positions through having the necessary requirements that public officials must have for all civil servant positions here.

 

[godmachine12]

Actually, lost productivity due to illness, disability and premature death in youth and medical expenses is attributed to the smoking cause if the victims just smoked. Not that there was any proof to the matter. With the lack of autopsies here, how would the experts know what killed someone. These figures are a lot like the alcohol related deaths in the US. If they had a drink it is alcohol related whether it contributed to the death or not.

Invented statistics as per usual.

 

[godmachine12]

So to the extent that kretek are Indonesian culture, they are being appropriated very successfully by Western tobacco multinationals.

Big tobacco has been exploiting poor countries with high rates of smoking for years.

Of course the question is do they bring these Westernised kretek brands international - kretek are banned in Western countries as their sugar, cloves and other additives are deemed too attractive to children, but perhaps they can export them to other countries.

To a certain extent, yes, but it's a niche market at best. The main market for clove-flavoured cigarettes is still overwhelmingly Indonesia and the tobacco companies are well aware of that.

 

[yomav]

I think the visibility of vapor is greater because the particle size is larger. So, on an equal size of inhale and exhale as one would do for a cigarette, the edges of the cloud that would be invisible with smoke are visible with the vapor. Also, as vapor is less of an irritant than smoke, some vapers take much larger drags from a vaporizer than they would from a cigarette. More in, more out.

I don't think it feels the same. There is less of a burn in the back of the throat, which is referred to as throat hit. Unfortunately, I rather like that burning feeling in the back of my throat, so I tend to use liquids with a lot of menthol. Actually, cranking up the nicotine also helps with the throat hit. I guess a comparison might be like the difference between light cigarettes and normal cigarettes. Some people, like me, just prefer the harshness of the normal cigarettes. The harshest vape I've had is still nothing compared to a "heavy" or handrolled cigarette.

I've just had a look at the Singapore story. They are also banning nicotine patches, chewing tobacco, snuff, and anything else that delivers nicotine but is not a cigarette, looks like. They said it was about keeping the number of nicotine consumers down in general, by eliminating the emerging market for nicotine products. If they were doing away with the actual cigarettes as well, I wouldn't think they were full of it.

If you surveyed Indonesians I'm sure most of them would tell you that vaping is more harmful than smoking. There was a very visible series of stories on the news a while back, quoting discredited studies. Can't say I'm impressed. Someone mentioned a sky news story they saw recently. I was just looking at one from the Telegraph... headline is "Vaping As Bad For The Heart As Smoking..." Open it and the first line is "vaping could be as bad as smoking for the heart, research suggests CRYSTAL PRO MAX 4004." Click bait headline anyone? If you read through the whole of the article, it is disclosed that nicotine, the chemical we smokers/nicotine vapers are all addicted to... drumroll... is not good for the heart! What a revelation! The article also mentions that caffeine has a similar effect. No mention is made of the many carcinogens contained in cigarette smoke that are absent in vapor. No mention is made of the harmful effects that inhaling tar has upon the lungs.

When people treat such "news" as useful or insightful, I assume that they either: A, Are so vehemently opposed to smoking/nicotine consumption that they are also opposed to any "half measures" which people might use to reduce harm, B, Have a personal interest in preserving the status quo for tobacco companies, C, Of the type that can't/won't be bothered to understand what particular bit of gossip they are passing along, just so long as it might be of interest to someone. Thoroughly unimpressive.

Hi, I decided to give up smoking 75 days ago, it is the first time I went past the first 3 days. When I was hospitalized for T1 I managed to get some tobacco on day 3 in the hospital... Feeling quite good after first week went past, up until a few weeks ago when I just got horribly depressed... Usually I'm not a depressed guy, maybe sometimes a bit as probably most people. Pretty active with a lot to do all day and enjoying. Work is cool, doing stuff with the kids at home, travelling + quite a few hobbies... I feel my dopamine levels have plummeted and I'm used to keeping them high, nicotine induced of course... Now I enjoy nothing anymore... Just do stuff mechanically. I feel I might be missing some auto destruction too I go running 3 times a week around 25km. Physically I never felt better. T1 is going ok, I got used to it, feels normal to have it... Sorry for being negative, I just needed an (half)anonymous grump and maybe get some support or advice... This needs to stop, it seems that nicotine is holding it's claws tighter than I thought it would... Crazy how powerful the thing is. If this persists for a substantial amount of time I'll just smoke and concede defeat...

 

[Bob]

Hi, I decided to give up smoking 75 days ago, it is the first time I went past the first 3 days. When I was hospitalized for T1 I managed to get some tobacco on day 3 in the hospital... Feeling quite good after first week went past, up until a few weeks ago when I just got horribly depressed... Usually I'm not a depressed guy, maybe sometimes a bit as probably most people. Pretty active with a lot to do all day and enjoying. Work is cool, doing stuff with the kids at home, travelling + quite a few hobbies... I feel my dopamine levels have plummeted and I'm used to keeping them high, nicotine induced of course... Now I enjoy nothing anymore... Just do stuff mechanically. I feel I might be missing some auto destruction too I go running 3 times a week around 25km. Physically I never felt better. T1 is going ok, I got used to it, feels normal to have it... Sorry for being negative, I just needed an (half)anonymous grump and maybe get some support or advice... This needs to stop, it seems that nicotine is holding it's claws tighter than I thought it would... Crazy how powerful the thing is. If this persists for a substantial amount of time I'll just smoke and concede defeat...

As you continue without nicotine and the other chemicals in cigarette smoke your body will slowly get things back in natural balance and the blahs should fade. It doesn't happen at all quickly but it happens. If you were a heavy smoker give it six months or so. That's my experience anyway.