Smoking...

[fastpitch17]

Look at the differance in Tar between a regular cig and a clove one. Regular ones I think are about 8 to 10 mg whereas I have seen some clove at 800 mg. That could explain it.

 

[londo_edan]

I have seen some clove at 800 mg. That could explain it.

Oh the humanity

If the government doesn't (finally) do something about these carcinogen bombs then it will be a sad day IMHO.

 

[fastpitch17]

Oh the humanity

If the government doesn't (finally) do something about these carcinogen bombs then it will be a sad day IMHO.

They won't differ between one or the other because the other is a cultural heritage here. It's Indonesia government. They are not well known to do things for the right reasons.

 

[macvert]

My favourite uncle smoked like a fish & drank like a chimney ( something like that ), what a top bloke &family man he was with a great life long relationship with his family, he lived a great life & died of natural causes at the age of 82.


My old man was a physically abusive bastard who never ever smoked, very very rarely drank, disliked my uncle for just those ridiculous reasons. is now 82 & living with dementia, need I say more except “if anyone hates me just because I smoke & or drink then I pity their sad sad lifeâ€.


Anyway, I couldn't be bothered reading this whole thread but in my view the only reason the Indo gov't is pretending to be concerned is because of the revenue it will raise; they're learning from other gov'ts.


Just saying.

 

[londo_edan]

My favourite uncle smoked like a fish & drank like a chimney ( something like that ), what a top bloke &family man he was with a great life long relationship with his family, he lived a great life & died of natural causes at the age of 82

Such characters are called statistical outliers.

As for the final point in your post:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwWfE4DAyao

Now when did I last hear this song used as part of a campaign ?????

 

[Anglian]

All I recal is sometime ago the government were going to increase taxes on cigarettes, failed miserably, the the Tobaco farmers turned up masse outside the DPR, thee DPR soon forgot about that, mob rules here at times

 

[Vicissidude]

As a final 'I hate smoking and smokers rant' isn't it true that the reason its so difficult to get kretek fags outside RI, is that brands such as Dji Sam Soe and their ilk, are so toxic (read carcinogenic) that no other country would sanction their sale ?

In the US at least, I don't think that was the reason. All flavored cigarettes (excluding menthols) were banned, the rationale being that flavors were supposedly a way for cigarette companies to market to children. I remember the expensive packs of Camels with flavors like cherry and vanilla being banned at the same time. I remember Djarum Blacks were popular before that.

 

[Vicissidude]

Anyway, I couldn't be bothered reading this whole thread but in my view the only reason the Indo gov't is pretending to be concerned is because of the revenue it will raise; they're learning from other gov'ts.


Just saying.

Exactly. Use the promise that a rise in prices would decrease smoking, but they know fully well that the vast majority won't quit and piles of money will go into their pockets. I don't think I'm alone here in being doubtful that the increased tax revenue would actually be used for the public good. To be clear, I think taxes are good, but so is accountability for the government with control over the money.

Anyway, I heard from someone (on here? can't remember) that September 1st was the date for the price hike. Hasn't happened yet.

 

[jstar]

Nope. And now the DJBC states it would not be before next year.

 

[londo_edan]

In the US at least, I don't think that was the reason. All flavored cigarettes (excluding menthols) were banned, the rationale being that flavors were supposedly a way for cigarette companies to market to children. I remember the expensive packs of Camels with flavors like cherry and vanilla being banned at the same time. I remember Djarum Blacks were popular before that.

Hey, you might well be right re the US / N America. I've visited a lot of countries that do not sell them though.

Look at this factoid from Wiki: Tobacco smoking in Indonesia is said to claim 300,000 lives every year.

I'm all for freedom of choice and ones right to live a life free from too much oversight, but still, that number remains a staggering figure.

Who cares what is motivating the government to up the taxes on fags. And the sooner they kick opportunist chancers like Phillip Morris Inc out the better.

 

[jstar]

^
You mention Philip Moris (and BAT etc.) but in fact the most popular here is the kretek*. And they are cheaper here because of favorable taxes.

The EU has also maximum levels determined; so they are allowed as long as they adhere to the maximum nicotine and tar levels.

 

[londo_edan]

^
You mention Philip Moris (and BAT etc.) but in fact the most popular here is the kretek*. And they are cheaper here because of favorable taxes.

The EU has also maximum levels determined; so they are allowed as long as they adhere to the maximum nicotine and tar levels.

I mentioned PM for a reason, they now have a controlling interest in Sampoerna, the country's largest producer of kretek fags, including the culturally important Dji Sam Soe.

The company have a squalid little house in Sby promoting their brands, fags, importance to Indonesia, cultural significance etc.. and the PM buy-in is detailed in some recent exhibits on the walls. The US fag manufacturers must be desperately seeking new markets at the mo', wonder how much they spend on lobbying in RI and countries like China, Japan, Korea etc..

And this thread is about the impact when, and if, those taxes are raised (doubled, trebled Insh'Allah).

 

[atlantis]

I mentioned PM for a reason, they now have a controlling interest in Sampoerna, the country's largest producer of kretek fags, including the culturally important Dji Sam Soe..

For the record, Philip Morris is involved with Dji Sam Soe since the beginning of the 20th (yes, twentieth) century, just before WW1.

And British American Tobacco (BAT) controls the whole Bentoel Group since the late 2000s. Bentoel is the second largest tobacco group in Indonesia and which were the first one to introduce Kretek filter on the market. To date the Bentoel Group has more than 20 brands of kretek cigarettes.

You were totally right in mentionning these two companies. They are leading the kretek market.

Gudang Garam, Djarum and the Wismilak group remain independent (as in Indonesian owned) in majority but they come only after the big tobacco MNC that are BAT and Philip Morris. It has however been enough for their controlling families to indeed rank among the wealthiest Indonesian families (ex: Budi hartono or the late Rachman Halim).

The Tobacco Giants would have never left alone the kretek market. Too much money to be made.

 

[sumyunggai]

They (BAT/Bentoel) have just renamed Club Mild, which is the most popular white (youth/female) filter kretek on the market (if you can afford it, you smoke Sampoerna, Club Mild is a cheaper version) to Lucky Strike Mild, which is obviously an international (US) brandname. This follows the earlier launch of Dunhill, another Western cigarette brand, as a kretek brand.

So to the extent that kretek are Indonesian culture, they are being appropriated very successfully by Western tobacco multinationals.

Of course the question is do they bring these Westernised kretek brands international - kretek are banned in Western countries as their sugar, cloves and other additives are deemed too attractive to children, but perhaps they can export them to other countries.

 

[sumyunggai]

Look at the differance in Tar between a regular cig and a clove one. Regular ones I think are about 8 to 10 mg whereas I have seen some clove at 800 mg. That could explain it.

This is not true nor possible. The top is around 40mg.

 

[sumyunggai]

^
You mention Philip Moris (and BAT etc.) but in fact the most popular here is the kretek*. And they are cheaper here because of favorable taxes.

The EU has also maximum levels determined; so they are allowed as long as they adhere to the maximum nicotine and tar levels.

Kretek are banned under the Tobacco Products Directive (since May).

Many other things are also banned, such as selling packs of 12 and 16 as is popular in Indonesia.

 

[Scooterindo]

I was the project manager on the refurb of the BAT office in plaza Exim in the mid 90s - they actually gave all the workers a free slop of the cigs of their choice every week.

 

[HappyMan]

The wife instigated my change over to vaping. It is less harmful to third parties (read, my son), and to the vaper as well. Also, I don't smell like an unwashed ashtray anymore, just like... unwashed ;-). Mind you, I do still smoke when I'm pulling an all-nighter (damned coursework) or out with friends. You'd have a hard go of it trying to convince me that vaping is anywhere near as carcinogenic as smoking.

I wouldn't mind a raise in taxes (as an occasional smoker), if I could be convinced that the money would actually go to offset the cost of healthcare... I'll take a lot of convincing.

There are quite a few vape shops in Bandung, with five or so kiosks in Balubur, 1 on Ciampelas, 1 kiosk in Ciwalk and one kiosk on Progo, that I know of, and I avoid gong to brick and mortar shops whenever possible. You can also find a lots of vaping stuff on tokopedia. It is a hipster thing, here, and I think there is an economic component to it, too. I'm not convinced it is a cheap as buying cheap fags, especially when you consider that it is incredibly difficult to find anything with more than 6 mg of nic (I was a chain smoker, and anything under 16 mg leaves me either vaping constantly or niccing like crazy). I really don't know much about vaping, but I'm willing to share what I do know if anyone is interested.

 

[londo_edan]

More staggering statistics from todays JakPost on the (net) impact of smoking on the RI economy:

Though the government often argues that the tobacco industry brings much-needed revenue to the country, with it targeting to collect Rp 148.86 trillion from tobacco excise this year, the economic loss from tobacco consumption is actually much greater.

In 2013, the total loss due to tobacco consumption hit Rp 378.75 trillion, according to the Health Ministry, resulting from lost productivity due to illness, disability and premature death in youth and medical expenses.

Indonesia’s economy is also expected to lose Rp 59,580 trillion (US$4.5 trillion) by 2030 from tobacco-related diseases.

Those numbers really do beggar belief.

 

[jstar]

I really don't know much about vaping, but I'm willing to share what I do know if anyone is interested.

Sure. So why is there such a huge cloud? And does it really 'feel' the same as smoking? It's weird that countries like Singapore banned it altogether?