Remote work with a spouse KITAS visa - the how

Unlike the E31A visa, the E33G visa allows individuals to apply for an ITAS only if they choose to.
This is not true . The "E33G - Remote Worker Visa" is a Temporary Residence Visa/Limited Stay Visa/Visa Tinggal Terbatas which will always become a Temporary Residence Permit/e-ITAS/KITAS when its holder enters Indonesia .
When a foreigner enters Indonesia with a visa , he/she will get either : a Visit Stay Permit (for Visit Visa holder) or an e-ITAS/KITAS (for a Residence Visa holder) . Visit Visa includes VOA , Tourist Visa , .. (Visa for a stay duration of 30 days , 60 days , or 180 days - extendable) .

PerMen22 Year 2023
Article 63
(1) Application for a Temporary Residence Visa/Visa Tinggal Terbatas for foreigners who are remote workers in relation to employment at a company not domiciled in Indonesia ...
This provides a way to avoid becoming a tax resident, as people can opt not to apply for an ITAS and leave Indonesia before reaching the 183 day threshold. They could then switch to another type of visa, ...
Even if it was true , it would not work as you think , as I tried to explain in post no.17 above . Let me give an example : You stay 180 days , leave but return to Indonesia few days later . Then the first day after returning will count as your 181 day , and so on .
The cost of the E33G visa is relatively affordable:
  • Visa Fee: Rp500,000
  • Verification Fee (Category II): Rp2,000,000
From https://evisa.imigrasi.go.id/web/visa-selection
Type of Visa E33G - 1 YEAR
Cost : 7,000,000
Poster's Note : price above (in IDR) is probably for the Visa + e-ITAS + Re-Entry Permit.
 
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AFAIK, People with ITAS/ITAP will automatically become an Indonesian tax residence ..., requiring them to register for an NPWP.
Not everybody is required to get a NPWP (see below - although related to an old Tax Law , I believe it is still valid)

PENJELASAN ATAS UNDANG-UNDANG REPUBLIK INDONESIA NOMOR 36 TAHUN 2008
(Explanation of the Income Tax Law)
Pasal 2
... , an individual taxpayer who receives income below the personal exemption (PTKP) is not required to register to obtain a NPWP .
Having an NPWP it is mandatory to do an annual tax return.
Indonesia allows a NPWP to become a "non-effective" one , in which condition you are not required to present the annual tax return report .
 
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Neither office will give you anything in writing, because this is a legal grey area with contradictory laws. It is therefore not possible to give a definitive legal interpretation.
I disagree with this. In other countries, when you ask a question or seek clarification on something unclear from any governmental office, it is their duty to clarify, provide a clear and accurate answer or provide their stance. People could get a written confirmation via email, or via letter. It might also be their OFFICIAL chat, whatsApp channel if available. They are required to answer correctly, and accurately (or provide their stance) as they are professionals being paid for their jobs. Otherwise, theoretically, if you can prove that you have repeatedly asked for clarification and they do not respond it becomes easy for people to shift blame on them for not clarifying it. That is normally a legitimate defence that could be used if the case goes before the court.

This is different from a discussion forum like this one, where there is no obligation for anyone to respond to question
 
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I disagree with this. In other countries, when you ask a question or seek clarification on something unclear from any governmental office, it is their duty to clarify, provide a clear and accurate answer. People could get a written confirmation via email, or via letter. It might also be their OFFICIAL chat, whatsApp channel if available. They are required to answer correctly, and accurately as they are professionals being paid for their jobs. Otherwise, theoretically, if you can prove that you have repeatedly asked for clarification and they do not respond it becomes easy for people to shift blame to them for not clarifying it.

This is different from a discussion forum like this one, where there is no obligation for anyone to respond to question
There you go. "in other countries" Indonesia is not another country and doesn't give a rats ass what other countries do, Geesh, you haven't figured that out yet? Wake up.
 
There you go. "in other countries" Indonesia is not another country and doesn't give a rats ass what other countries do, Geesh, you haven't figured that out yet? Wake up.
I am well aware of how things usually operate in Indonesia. However, there have been instances where they did respond via their WhatsApp channel or email.

The main point I am trying to emphasize, as mentioned in my earlier posts, is that the statement of a single immigration official cannot be taken as a definitive defence, especially considering this is in Indonesia as you said.
 
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This is not true . The "E33G - Remote Worker Visa" is a Temporary Residence Visa/Limited Stay Visa/Visa Tinggal Terbatas which will always become a Temporary Residence Permit/e-ITAS/KITAS when its holder enters Indonesia .
When a foreigner enters Indonesia with a visa , he/she will get either : a Visit Stay Permit (for Visit Visa holder) or an e-ITAS/KITAS (for a Residence Visa holder) . Visit Visa includes VOA , Tourist Visa , .. (Visa for a stay duration of 30 days , 60 days , or 180 days - extendable) .

I am very well aware that E33G is VITAS. There is a facebook group, people NOMAD sharing their experience. In order to get ITAS there is still something they need to do to get that ITAS, not automatic, especially if they do not intend to use it for the whole one year. If they do not register they will not get it.

PerMen22 Year 2023
Article 63
(1) Application for a Temporary Residence Visa/Visa Tinggal Terbatas for foreigners who are remote workers in relation to employment at a company not domiciled in Indonesia ...

Even if it was true , it would not work as you think , as I tried to explain in post no.17 above . Let me give an example : You stay 180 days , leave but return to Indonesia few days later . Then the first day after returning will count as your 181 day , and so on .

From https://evisa.imigrasi.go.id/web/visa-selection
Type of Visa E33G - 1 YEAR
Cost : 7,000,000
Poster's Note : price above (in IDR) is probably for the Visa + e-ITAS + Re-Entry Permit.

How do you think some tourists or digital nomads manage to keep doing visa runs if their time isn't reset? It is a different case if you already have an ITAS. This is one of the common reasons why some nomads choose to avoid getting an ITAS.

The primary distinction between E31A and E33G lies in the application process: with E33G, you are required to provide evidence of employment and proof of earning at least US$60k as part of your application. Earning US$60k is significantly above the tax-free allowance, and some people prefer to avoid being under such an intense exposure.
 
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... In order to get ITAS there is still something they need to do to get that ITAS, not automatic,
Yes , few years ago when coming with a Residence Visa/VITAS we had 30 days to request the e-ITAS/KITAS . Now it seems we get the ITAS at the airport/port when entering Indonesia (see below) .

PerMen no.22 Year 2023 - free translation
Article 106
(1) Foreigners who enter Indonesia with a Residence Visa/VITAS ... will be given an Entry stamp by an Immigration Officer at an Immigration Checkpoint ...
(2) The Entry stamp as referred above is valid as a Residence Permit/ITAS.
... In order to get ITAS there is still something they need to do to get that ITAS, not automatic, especially if they do not intend to use it for the whole one year. If they do not register they will not get it.
So if they entered Indonesia when the Entry stamp was giving us 30 days to request the ITAS , if they didn't request it they stayed illegally (without a Stay Permit) after these 30 days in Indonesia .
How do you think some tourists or digital nomads manage to keep doing visa runs if their time isn't reset?
Visa runs were very common in the past (maybe not so much now) because many foreigners used short Visit Visas (extendable up to 60 days or 180 days) as they were not eligible for longer Residence Visas (extendable up to 6 years) .

As I said before , not many (officially not working) foreigners were/are concerned about Indonesian income tax .
But yes , it is possible that few digital nomads were/are mistankenly thinking that the time (related to the 183 days rule) will reset after a visa run .
... with E33G, you are required to provide evidence of employment and proof of earning at least US$60k as part of your application. Earning US$60k is significantly above the tax-free allowance, and some people prefer to avoid being under such an intense exposure.
I agree .
Besides this , I guess many digital nomads/remote workers cannot provide the required documents for the "E33G - Remote Workers Visa" .
 
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I am well aware of how things usually operate in Indonesia. However, there have been instances where they did respond via their WhatsApp channel or email.

The main point I am trying to emphasize, as mentioned in my earlier posts, is that the statement of a single immigration official cannot be taken as a definitive defence, especially considering this is in Indonesia as you said.
Almost same is for WhatsApp answer.
 
Almost same is for WhatsApp answer.
Are you saying that the responses received through WhatsApp, Chatting facility cannot be used as a defence in court?

In my earlier posts, I restrict it to an official WhatsApp channel, chatting facility that is set up and acknowledged by the relevant department as an authorized communication medium (if such a channel exists). This typically does not include WhatsApp numbers shared informally by individuals online or by employees of the government office.

WhatsApp responses have been used as evidence in courts worldwide, including in Indonesia. There are a lot of instances where the WA have been used in high profile cases in the courtroom in Indonesia. However, their validity often depends on thorough examination by a telecommunications expert witness.
 
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Are you saying that the responses received through WhatsApp, Chatting facility cannot be used as a defence in court?

In my earlier posts, I restrict it to an official WhatsApp channel, chatting facility that is set up and acknowledged by the relevant department as an authorized communication medium (if such a channel exists). This typically does not include WhatsApp numbers shared informally by individuals online or by employees of the government office.

WhatsApp responses have been used as evidence in courts worldwide, including in Indonesia. There are a lot of instances where the WA have been used in high profile cases in the courtroom in Indonesia. However, their validity often depends on thorough examination by a telecommunications expert witness.
Continue daydreaming. Before applearing on the court you would be long time deported.
 
Continue daydreaming. Before appearing on the court you would be long time deported.
I understand how things operate in Indonesia. However, with the same mindset, why do people bother asking questions like this to individual tax officers, only to receive verbal answers that are of little use (see attachment)? These responses are far less reliable, literally will not be useful in a legal defence than written confirmations, such as official messages via WhatsApp, which can serve as evidence when needed.

It is also unlikely that they would deport a foreigner if they believe the individual owes the government taxes amounting to several million US dollars (say). The typical approach would be requiring you to pay the disputed tax before allowing you to leave. In such cases, you would need to challenge the matter in court or you go to prison for tax offence. An evidence like official WhatsApp messages, confirmation could be invaluable for your defence lawyer.

Screenshot 2025-01-10 143325.jpg
 
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I understand how things operate in Indonesia. However, with the same mindset, why do people bother asking questions like this to individual tax officers, only to receive verbal answers that are of little use (see attachment)? These responses are far less reliable, literally will not be useful in a legal defence than written confirmations, such as official messages via WhatsApp, which can serve as evidence when needed.

It is also unlikely that they would deport a foreigner if they believe the individual owes the government taxes amounting to several million US dollars (say). The typical approach would be requiring you to pay the disputed tax before allowing you to leave. In such cases, you would need to challenge the matter in court, and evidence like official WhatsApp messages could be invaluable for your defence lawyer.

View attachment 4577
Why do we keep pretending that "rules" apply to everyone equally? Being morally or even legally right doesn't matter when you are the guest of a foreign country. They can make you leave just because they don't like your face and there is really nothing you could do about it. That is just a fact of life.
 
I understand how things operate in Indonesia. However, with the same mindset, why do people bother asking questions like this to individual tax officers, only to receive verbal answers that are of little use (see attachment)? These responses are far less reliable, literally will not be useful in a legal defence than written confirmations, such as official messages via WhatsApp, which can serve as evidence when needed.

It is also unlikely that they would deport a foreigner if they believe the individual owes the government taxes amounting to several million US dollars (say). The typical approach would be requiring you to pay the disputed tax before allowing you to leave. In such cases, you would need to challenge the matter in court, and evidence like official WhatsApp messages could be invaluable for your defence lawyer.

View attachment 4577
I will give you real-life answer.

Foreigner buys/leases houses in Bali. The immigration deports him because he promotes his investments on youtube, and had only visa on arrival, and forbids business. Visa on arrival allows you do to business meetings, says the immigration website.

He read the government propaganda and beleived.
 
Why do we keep pretending that "rules" apply to everyone equally? Being morally or even legally right doesn't matter when you are the guest of a foreign country. They can make you leave just because they don't like your face and there is really nothing you could do about it. That is just a fact of life.
Am I? This might be your own interpretation. Someone is saying that written answer from official channel is the same with the verbal answer from immigration officers. I am specifically commenting the distinction between verbal and written confirmation, and I provided an example of how WhatsUp have been used in a particular situation. This is far from being a generalization, pretending the rule apply to every one.
 
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I will give you real-life answer.
Foreigner buys/leases houses in Bali. The immigration deports him because he promotes his investments on youtube, and had only visa on arrival, and forbids business. Visa on arrival allows you do to business meetings, says the immigration website.
He read the government propaganda and believed.
I have highlighted the important wordings.
Promoting investment, making profit ...........

If the amount of money involved is substantial, someone might want to hire a skilled lawyer to fight his case. In such case, written information, confirmation will be invaluable for his defence lawyer.

However, in the case mentioned above, it seems quite evident to me that not many lawyers would be capable of defending it. I believe, not many would want to take on such a case under a "no win, no fee" arrangement. Instead, they might make false promises and charge a fee regardless of the outcome.
 
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... why do people bother asking questions like this to individual tax officers, only to receive verbal answers that are of little use ...
Because you referred to what I wrote , let me clarify that I agree with Centurion that verbal or even written information from individual officer will not help me from being deported . My point was that if you get the same tax information from some 4 Government tax officers , in different offices & different times , the probability of this information being wrong (& I being deported) is not big .
It is also unlikely that they would deport a foreigner if they believe the individual owes the government taxes amounting to several million US dollars ...
In my view and from what we have heard up to now , the most probable action from the Indonesian Immigration in any doubtful situation is to deport the foreigner , because for them it is very easy to do so .

But specifically regarding income tax , I didn't notice any case of Immigration neither deporting a foreigner nor going to the Court against a foreigner , due to it .
 
Foreigner buys/leases houses in Bali. The immigration deports him ... Visa on arrival allows you do to business meetings, says the immigration website.

He read the government propaganda and believed.
I would not consider this as a government's "propaganda" .
Two of the world's common problems are people's ignorance and laziness to look for important information .

--------------------

From Oxford Learner's Dictionaries , "propaganda" means : ideas or statements that may be false or exaggerated and that are used in order to gain support for a political leader, party, etc
 
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In my view and from what we have heard up to now , the most probable action from the Indonesian Immigration in any doubtful situation is to deport the foreigner , because for them it is very easy to do so .

But specifically regarding income tax , I didn't notice any case of Immigration neither deporting a foreigner nor going to the Court against a foreigner , due to it .
If they can not get the blood out of the stone, and the amount is not that substantial, I agree the best cause of action for them might be to deport the person and to be banned to re-enter the country.

But IMO not in the case where the amount of tax owed plus penalty is substantial, and they authority could see the assets, cash in the country to seize to recover the tax they believe being owed. Also it might serve as a show case in public for deterrence for other tax offenders.

To reclaim back your assets, to avoid prison sentence, your lawyer would need to fight back your case in the court, and having written confirmation will be invaluable for your defence lawyer.

 
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