Punishment for women who don't want to wear jilbab

[fastpitch17]

He repressed everybody, not just the radicals. Newspapers and magazines that pursued corruption cases got their publishing license revoked. He engineered the ouster by force of Megawati from the PDI, which is why she established PDI Perjuangan, the largest political party in Indonesia today. In the final years of his reign political activists began to disappear, never to be found alive anymore.

So, on one hand wearing a hijab to your government office job was an overt act of defiance, but on the other hand not having a religion made you ineligible for government job to begin with. Even today the second requirement for all government jobs is profession of faith to one God (the first being Indonesian citizenship).

It might be difficult to fathom to outsiders, but the jilbab is seen by many as a symbol of freedom of faith and morality, at odds with Suharto’s secular corruption. There is no debate that Suharto’s government was highly corrupt, thus secularism in Indonesia is forever tainted by it.

In late 90s Suharto began moving closer to religion and promoting his brand of it, hoping to secure lasting support from religious groups for his dynasty as he (correctly) predicted the rise of the nationalists, marching behind Megawati. He was looking for a deal similar to the one made by the Saud dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Give him and his family unconditional support, and in exchange he’ll let the hardliners define society as they wish and keep Sukarno followers at bay. Read up on Habibie’s ICMI.

There are so many twists and turns in Indonesian history worthy of Game of Thrones. To hear a simplistic claim on the rise of the jilbab in Indonesia is comical.


I’m not a woman, so I’m not in the best position to answer it. However, if I were to hazard a guess the answer is yes, but not by much and not universally. It doesn’t turn one into a hardliner. As a matter of fact it can give one a measure of safety to speak against hardliners. If two women with jilbabs have a disagreement, then it’s just opposing opinions. If one of them doesn’t wear a jilbab, then there’s an automatic suspicion that the jilbabless lady is against Islam.


You will find that the topless women and the hijabed women belong to two different groups, by ethnicity and religion.

First off concerning Suharto, I did say one positive.

As for women being stronger then vs now, I have to say no difference. I have in fact asked women and comparing then and now most say probably the same. Basically because they were not a thing back then. In todays atmosphere, wearing is considered more faithfull than not wearing if you ask the one wearing. No difference if you ask the one not wearing.

As for the topless women, I am guessing with your answer of different ethnicity and religion you are only looking at Bali. If that were the case I would have mentioned the 1950s. I said turn of the Century. That applies to Javanese, Sundanese, and other areas of Indonesia. Yes, they changed but I have found nothing anywhere that suggest Islam changed their covering practices and they were Muslim. Changes came primarily from Western influances. Mainly the Dutch. Take for example the Kabaya. Most think of it as an original Indonesian fashion and while it was intended for Indonesians, it was introduced by the Dutch. Dutch officers and government personnel introduced it to the aristocratic Indonesian women who they would invite to accompany their aristocratic husbands to some social affairs. Dutch wives thought topless women were unacceptable, especially if any children may be in attendance. So, as a remidy to the women being topless at their events, the Dutch introduced them to the Kabaya. The first Kabaya was a lacy sort of covering and the material and lacing along with it being white made it completely see through. Still, it was accepted and progressed from there as a fashion. Were these women less faithful to their religion? I doubt it. At that time there probably were not many reading the Quran let alone read anything. Were there Imams telling them to cover up? If there were, why wasn't anyone listening to them? Once the aristocrats started covering up, others followed. Kind of like the practice you see today with individual image which may to why the hijab is worn by many. The image of faith no matter if you have it or not. Like buying some cheep thing at Ace so you can walk around with an Ace bag.

 

[Hawk256]

Like buying some cheep thing at Ace so you can walk around with an Ace bag.

Is that a thing? I didn't realize Ace was high society. Good to know for the next time I buy some toilet paper.

 

[Nimbus]

First off concerning Suharto, I did say one positive.

As for women being stronger then vs now, I have to say no difference. I have in fact asked women and comparing then and now most say probably the same. Basically because they were not a thing back then. In todays atmosphere, wearing is considered more faithfull than not wearing if you ask the one wearing. No difference if you ask the one not wearing.

As for the topless women, I am guessing with your answer of different ethnicity and religion you are only looking at Bali. If that were the case I would have mentioned the 1950s. I said turn of the Century. That applies to Javanese, Sundanese, and other areas of Indonesia. Yes, they changed but I have found nothing anywhere that suggest Islam changed their covering practices and they were Muslim. Changes came primarily from Western influances. Mainly the Dutch. Take for example the Kabaya. Most think of it as an original Indonesian fashion and while it was intended for Indonesians, it was introduced by the Dutch. Dutch officers and government personnel introduced it to the aristocratic Indonesian women who they would invite to accompany their aristocratic husbands to some social affairs. Dutch wives thought topless women were unacceptable, especially if any children may be in attendance. So, as a remidy to the women being topless at their events, the Dutch introduced them to the Kabaya. The first Kabaya was a lacy sort of covering and the material and lacing along with it being white made it completely see through. Still, it was accepted and progressed from there as a fashion. Were these women less faithful to their religion? I doubt it. At that time there probably were not many reading the Quran let alone read anything. Were there Imams telling them to cover up? If there were, why wasn't anyone listening to them? Once the aristocrats started covering up, others followed. Kind of like the practice you see today with individual image which may to why the hijab is worn by many. The image of faith no matter if you have it or not. Like buying some cheep thing at Ace so you can walk around with an Ace bag.

To borrow an American term, the majority of Javanese at the turn of the century were Muslims “in name only”. The king was a Muslim, so they were also Muslims by automatic extension. The multitude of animist traditions were still practiced, which later became a source of contention and split between the so called Islam Putihan (White Islam) and Islam Abangan (Red Islam). The minority White Muslims sought to practice a more ‘pure’ Islam while the Reds remained steeped in local customs, as a legacy of the Wali Songo (Nine Saints). The venerated nine spread Islam not by destroying local faith, but by supplanting and complementing it. Yes, the converts were legally Muslims but technically didn’t practice mainstream Islam in the modern sense.

 

[MamangDudul]

I can't add much to the subject that hasn't already been presented here, I only feel like there is definitely something going on.

Especially in the last 10 years I noticed two things, children and all others getting fatter (no offense, iam not really a lightweight myself) and more and more women cover their head. I don't have a problem with that in general and most people treat me the same as always. I know all kind of people, I don't say that is special but it is what it is. Some people take more of a distance to me than in the past. I feel like especially on first meetings many people are a lot more reserved towards me than in the past. And then I hear a lot of pseudo religious talk on the playground between children, excluding children with other religions. I don't say it happens all the time but It happens and I feel like it's getting more

From my observations I would say that Indonesia indeed has a problem with its identity and there is probably too much of a saudi or hardliner influence. Sometimes I feel like everything is moving backwards and I felt that change more in the last years.
Indonesia has a lot to be proud of and a rich history and culture and I would rather like seeing people celebrating and cherishing that history and seek their identity in their own culture. That being said, I know that things are much more complicated and these are only some simple observations I made in my personal world.

 

[Ruserious]

Driving past schools its hard to miss the change vs 15 years ago. Almost all the girls from a relatively young age are wearing jilbabs and to me it is a shame that it is starting at such a young age when surely they are not old enough for an informed choice. The default is becoming wearing one and it takes breaking from the norm and almost rebelling to not wear one.

 

[MamangDudul]

Driving past schools its hard to miss the change vs 15 years ago. Almost all the girls from a relatively young age are wearing jilbabs and to me it is a shame that it is starting at such a young age when surely they are not old enough for an informed choice. The default is becoming wearing one and it takes breaking from the norm and almost rebelling to not wear one.

Even the smallest. As cute as it looks, it hasn't been like that a few years ago. The sad thing is that the motivation behind these things is questionable. I talked with many people who told me that is more of ab obligation than a real display of faith. Or for example some women also try to look more innocent, faithful and so on for their husband or future husband. The trouble starts when these, now still often harmless things turn into an exteme ideology.

Again, only my observation and I don't say it is like that in every case. I wish nothing more that we can all live together peacefully. Indonesia surly has foundations for that but also a lot of disturbance going on.

 

[scouser59]

I can't add much to the subject that hasn't already been presented here, I only feel like there is definitely something going on.

Especially in the last 10 years I noticed two things, children and all others getting fatter (no offense, iam not really a lightweight myself) and more and more women cover their head. I don't have a problem with that in general and most people treat me the same as always. I know all kind of people, I don't say that is special but it is what it is. Some people take more of a distance to me than in the past. I feel like especially on first meetings many people are a lot more reserved towards me than in the past. And then I hear a lot of pseudo religious talk on the playground between children, excluding children with other religions. I don't say it happens all the time but It happens and I feel like it's getting more

From my observations I would say that Indonesia indeed has a problem with its identity and there is probably too much of a saudi or hardliner influence. Sometimes I feel like everything is moving backwards and I felt that change more in the last years.
Indonesia has a lot to be proud of and a rich history and culture and I would rather like seeing people celebrating and cherishing that history and seek their identity in their own culture. That being said, I know that things are much more complicated and these are only some simple observations I made in my personal world.

On your comment re people treating you different these days , we travel to see the folks around once a year in malang from bali our home .

Ya malang now is too crowded , but there is definitely a feeling I get which makes me uncomfortable , when meeting some people , Malang never used to be like that , Imho it has become more radical .

The only area I felt somewhat comfortable in java ,is around Banyuwangi where the people seem more like the old Java 15 years ago .

 

[Bob]

To borrow an American term, the majority of Javanese at the turn of the century were Muslims “in name only”. The king was a Muslim, so they were also Muslims by automatic extension. The multitude of animist traditions were still practiced, which later became a source of contention and split between the so called Islam Putihan (White Islam) and Islam Abangan (Red Islam). The minority White Muslims sought to practice a more ‘pure’ Islam while the Reds remained steeped in local customs, as a legacy of the Wali Songo (Nine Saints). The venerated nine spread Islam not by destroying local faith, but by supplanting and complementing it. Yes, the converts were legally Muslims but technically didn’t practice mainstream Islam in the modern sense.

A good read on the subject is 'The Religion of Java' by Clifford Geertz. Of course things have continued to evolve since it was published. As mentioned above, Java has a less tolerant vibe than even 10 years ago. But it still beats a lot of places hands down.

 

[MamangDudul]

On your comment re people treating you different these days , we travel to see the folks around once a year in malang from bali our home .

Ya malang now is too crowded , but there is definitely a feeling I get which makes me uncomfortable , when meeting some people , Malang never used to be like that , Imho it has become more radical .

The only area I felt somewhat comfortable in java ,is around Banyuwangi where the people seem more like the old Java 15 years ago .

Yeah, that's why Iam always a bit careful and don't speak about absolute truths, since people demand evidence for every word these days . To make it short, sometimes it is hard to catch it or to put your finger on it but the feeling is definitely there for me, too.

 

[scouser59]

A good read on the subject is 'The Religion of Java' by Clifford Geertz. Of course things have continued to evolve since it was published. As mentioned above, Java has a less tolerant vibe than even 10 years ago. But it still beats a lot of places hands down.

I cant handle the noise in java ,I prefer the peace in bali ,we are only disturbed by the birds in the morning .

 

[Nimbus]

For sure it’s not the Indonesia I grew up in, for better or worse.

Let me add another dimension to it. While the seismic shift closer to religion comes with predictable negatives (like intolerance), it wasn’t started because Indonesians had an identity crisis. When the monetary crisis hit in 1997 and the country went to the crapper, a lot of people realized that Suharto’s oft-touted economic accomplishment was evanescent. Hell, life itself is evanescent. The entire country was soul searching. Many seek spirituality through religion, and others seek to return to Sukarno’s ideals despite his economic incompetence.

 

[Nimbus]

A good read on the subject is 'The Religion of Java' by Clifford Geertz. Of course things have continued to evolve since it was published. As mentioned above, Java has a less tolerant vibe than even 10 years ago. But it still beats a lot of places hands down.

Yes, I believe Geertz specifically mentioned the Abangan.

Indonesians are used to shifting beliefs. Sucessive dynasties in Java were Buddhists, Hindus, then Muslims. Most were nominal Muslims and now closer to mainstream Muslims. This too shall pass.

 

[Bob]

For sure it’s not the Indonesia I grew up in, for better or worse.

Let me add another dimension to it. While the seismic shift closer to religion comes with predictable negatives (like intolerance), it wasn’t started because Indonesians had an identity crisis. When the monetary crisis hit in 1997 and the country went to the crapper, a lot of people realized that Suharto’s oft-touted economic accomplishment was evanescent. Hell, life itself is evanescent. The entire country was soul searching. Many seek spirituality through religion, and others seek to return to Sukarno’s ideals despite his economic incompetence.

Very good points. And of course that doesn't happen just in Indonesia.

 

[Balifrog]

The only area I felt somewhat comfortable in java ,is around Banyuwangi where the people seem more like the old Java 15 years ago .

My Missus house is 40 km South of Banyuwangi, very small village, and even it's miles away from my culture, people are very nice, whatever their believe.
BUT..you can feel that it would take only a few.radicalist to change it all...
Missus and family are Hindu, in a village 90% muslim. Again, everybody goes along well, respects are paid for both religious dates but it wouldn't take much (sadly) for all this to turn into a big problem.

 

[Nimbus]

Very good points. And of course that doesn't happen just in Indonesia.

Yes, the hardship and the embrace of spirituality / religion as the answer is also seen in many other countries. In the middle east when dictators fell they were often replaced with religious hardliners.

Indonesia is lucky that she has the nationalists and the strongman-followers (golkar & demokrat) as formidable counterweights to religious parties. Except for a short period with Habibie (who became president because he was the VP when Suharto stepped down), Indonesia never had a religious hardliner as president. Gus Dur came from a religious party, but it’s the most moderate religious party of them all. This was also a guy who received a Medal of Valor from Simon Wiesenthal foundation and met with Shimon Peres.

 

[ponyexpress]

A friend of mine did a research on hijab in Indonesia in early 2000s. Her finding was that wearing hijab is not synonymous for being a Muslim hardliner. Fashion was one of the factors and peer pressure was another. But I noticed that wearing hijab in some places became mandatory and this boils down to local politics.

 

[centurion]

peer pressure was another. But I noticed that wearing hijab in some places became mandatory and this boils down to local politics.

Peer pressure for what? To become an open-minded liberal?

 

[Vanhelsing]

I knew a woman in Solo who admitted she with most of her friends wore a mask of sorts when in public - their dress and behavior very much removed from who they felt they were or wanted to be. Her reasons for wearing the hijab boiled down to nothing more than family and societal expectation or pressure. Life was far easier for her to acquiesce to her family and community demands than not.

 

[Nimbus]

When I met my high school friends in Jakarta in 2015, most of the girls were in jilbab. However, it didn’t prevent them from giving me a warm hug and left-right cheek bumps. That is surely not a hardliner behavior, because a strict Muslim woman wouldn’t even touch hands with a man outside her household.

 

[Dave70]

A male staff in my office was a handsome young man, well-groomed and clean-shaven. Active in his motorcycle club, and into body-building. His wife was a model-like beauty, long hair, no hijab, and a housewife taking care of her kids. As they live with the wife’s parents, it could be the grandmother taking care of their grandchildren. So possibly plenty of free-time for the wife at home, or time spent outside the house. One day, at a company gathering where you bring your spouse, we were shocked to see her wearing a niqab. We can only see her eyes, and we cannot shake her hand anymore. Sometime later, the husband starts growing his beard and he wears ‘celana banjir’ after work. He is also spending more time to pray. Our conclusion (never asked him), he is influenced by his wife who got inspired by some teachings either online or in person.