Punishment for women who don't want to wear jilbab

[Puspawarna]

Gender roles have traditionally been different in every society. I don't feel it's inherently discrimination because some of the rules may be slightly different between males and females, especially if you believe in the source of the religion.

That's a matter of opinion, and a lot of people would agree with you. Some of the differences are more than "slight," however - the fact that women can't become priests is pretty significant. They are barred from a particular career path, one that is highly respected and influential within the religious community. If that's not discrimination I don't know what is.

I agree that jilbab is not on that level, although extreme forms of mandatory burka certainly are.

 

[Hawk256]

That's a matter of opinion, and a lot of people would agree with you. Some of the differences are more than "slight," however - the fact that women can't become priests is pretty significant. They are barred from a particular career path, one that is highly respected and influential within the religious community. If that's not discrimination I don't know what is.

I agree that jilbab is not on that level, although extreme forms of mandatory burka certainly are.

At the time most religious texts were written women were not leaders. Should we apply modern society rules to texts that were written hundreds of years ago? In Islam Muhamad PBUH was the last prophet. No new rules to come along. The ones you have are it until the end of time. If you believe that, it is what it is.

 

[Puspawarna]

Should we apply modern society rules to texts that were written hundreds of years ago?

You may certainly choose your own answer to that question, as may I. As a product of a particular strain of "modern society," I believe in choice and religious tolerance, and that includes granting agency to women and respecting their choice to wear jilbab.

 

[centurion]

There is no tolerance for the intolerant.

 

[rabbit_39]

Religions just like society have rules. Some may not make sense to you but they are there anyway. You can choose to practice whatever religion you want but each religion has it's own rules. Many people cannot choose where they live but still have follow the rules of the society that live in. Where do we draw the line with personal freedoms? Is it really OK to eat pork if you are Muslim? What about wine and beer? Why is covering your head any different from the other rules?

I know plenty of people who claim to be Muslim who eat pork, drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes, lie, cheat, steal, don't fast, etc. Religion is a personal belief, and one chose to follow the religion based on one's interpretation or that which is forced upon him/her by others.

 

[fastpitch17]

Gender roles have traditionally been different in every society. I don't feel it's inherently discrimination because some of the rules may be slightly different between males and females, especially if you believe in the source of the religion. If you go by the book (whichever one you choose) then you believe in the wisdom of those rules and will follow those rules. If not, you are free to do as your society's man made rules will allow.

I say bullshit. Follow the book? What book. Muslims don't follow "the book", they more follow a bunch of guys that decided they should tell people what they think by personally interpreting "the book". Thus you have the hadiths. Then, what do you have. A lot if contradictiins and rules that most pick and choose from.

Let's take circumcisions. Where is that in "the book"? Doesn't "the book" say all were created oerfect? Hadiths go against that. How about removing pubic and underarm hair? It says too and is not gender specific. Where is that in "the book"? Being not gender specific, hadiths say grow a beard. I imagine you would have a fit if you seen a woman with one. Clipping nails? Yeah, right.

Yes, religions have their rules to follow but the majority if religiins are seated within the family to teach and nurture within it's directions. Not from someone sitting in some building that dits every other block telling others hiw to act and be a good muslim. Some guy that believes you are what god wants you to be so no sense trying to improve yourself or being a better provider for your family.

Those books you so eagerly want to follow, no matter what religion have been interpeted, translated, and used for a lot if no good in this world. Even your book no longer exist in it's original form and translations have been changed to fit the way men want them to fit.

The books that say, someone is the last, you are something automatically from birth, you can never leave, and crap like that just tells the world that that religion is about the most insecure religion one could find. And yes, your religion discriminates against women up and down the board but you will never realize that because you are a male and thus reap the rewards.

 

[harryopal1]

Is it a waste of time to question rules about the hijab and other customs that discriminate against women? Indonesian Muslims do not live in a vacuum. The country is subject to pressures internationally from issues such as foreign policy to trade relations and social issues. Awareness that other sees discriminatory rules against women as being outmoded and not in the national interest percolate through the public consciousness. It may seem an uphill battle but pointing out the disadvantages of discrimination against women is still a worthwhile activity,

 

[Balifrog]

It's different because it discriminates by gender. Both men and women are not supposed to drink alcohol, but it's only women who have to cover their hair.

However, inherent sexism is hardly a problem unique to Islam. In Roman Catholicism, women aren't allowed to be priests, for example.

Oh no ..... dont let this drift in the gender drama. Although it is a popular subject since a few years for some people who have nothing else to do.

 

[Balifrog]

Gender roles have traditionally been different in every society. I don't feel it's inherently discrimination because some of the rules may be slightly different between males and females, especially if you believe in the source of the religion. If you go by the book (whichever one you choose) then you believe in the wisdom of those rules and will follow those rules. If not, you are free to do as your society's man made rules will allow.

Hola, hola, God created a male and a female version of every animal (humans included..)
So it means he wanted it like that.
It worked for 1000's of years. Men go hunting food, women take care of the kids and cooks the food.
All animals function like this.
Keep it easy !

Oops, we're drifting here but I couldn't resist.

 

[harryopal1]

Hola, hola, God created a male and a female version of every animal (humans included..)
So it means he wanted it like that.
It worked for 1000's of years. Men go hunting food, women take care of the kids and cooks the food.
All animals function like this.
Keep it easy !

Oops, we're drifting here but I couldn't resist.

The sense of this argument reminds me of an Englishman I knew whose 12 year old daughter had ears like bat wings that stuck out at right angles from her head. There was talk of surgery but he took the view that God had made her like that so that was how it was meant to be.

 

[Balifrog]

The sense of this argument reminds me of an Englishman

The same Englishman that said "tongue in cheek" ?

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Also there is nothing in either the Quran or the hadiths that says mosques should have loudspeakers that are used to disturb the local community at all times of day and night. In fact I believe disturbing others while praying is actually haram.
It is just a very modern practice that started here in the 1980s.
On the other hand those people who go around in Ramadan banging a drum in the middle of the night, it may be annoying but at least we can see it is actually a real tradition and not something made up recently.

Making the jilbab almost compulsory is also a very new development here, something imposed by insecure men.

 

[Bob]

On women changing out of jilbabs on the way to Singapore, out of around 300 flights to SIN from various towns in Indonesia over the years I may have noticed that twice. I don't spend much time watching WC doors though. But even if it is common, there can be reasons other than societal coercion in Indonesia. Meeting boyfriends, and maids meeting non-Muslim employers (which indicates coercion to not wear the cover), come to mind.

 

[Hawk256]

I say bullshit. Follow the book? What book. Muslims don't follow "the book", they more follow a bunch of guys that decided they should tell people what they think by personally interpreting "the book". Thus you have the hadiths. Then, what do you have. A lot if contradictiins and rules that most pick and choose from.

Let's take circumcisions. Where is that in "the book"? Doesn't "the book" say all were created oerfect? Hadiths go against that. How about removing pubic and underarm hair? It says too and is not gender specific. Where is that in "the book"? Being not gender specific, hadiths say grow a beard. I imagine you would have a fit if you seen a woman with one. Clipping nails? Yeah, right.

Yes, religions have their rules to follow but the majority if religiins are seated within the family to teach and nurture within it's directions. Not from someone sitting in some building that dits every other block telling others hiw to act and be a good muslim. Some guy that believes you are what god wants you to be so no sense trying to improve yourself or being a better provider for your family.

Those books you so eagerly want to follow, no matter what religion have been interpeted, translated, and used for a lot if no good in this world. Even your book no longer exist in it's original form and translations have been changed to fit the way men want them to fit.

The books that say, someone is the last, you are something automatically from birth, you can never leave, and crap like that just tells the world that that religion is about the most insecure religion one could find. And yes, your religion discriminates against women up and down the board but you will never realize that because you are a male and thus reap the rewards.

If you look for something negative you will find it in any religion. Just like in any society. I'm not here to preach to anyone or debate religion in general. You are capable of making your own decision. Believe what you want and if it's different from me, no problem. There is no reason to criticize others beliefs just because you don't agree but if it makes you feel better about yourself, then I guess that's what it's really about. Where is the tolerance you are talking about?

 

[fastpitch17]

Tolerance. I have no problem with anyone's beliefs as long as they chose it freely and do not try to instill it on others.

 

[fastpitch17]

Also there is nothing in either the Quran or the hadiths that says mosques should have loudspeakers that are used to disturb the local community at all times of day and night. In fact I believe disturbing others while praying is actually haram.
It is just a very modern practice that started here in the 1980s.
On the other hand those people who go around in Ramadan banging a drum in the middle of the night, it may be annoying but at least we can see it is actually a real tradition and not something made up recently.

Making the jilbab almost compulsory is also a very new development here, something imposed by insecure men.

Most of it came about after the fall of Suharto. The arab/indonesian radicals took the lead and started their campaign to humiliate and accuse people of not being good Muslims if they didn't basically force all they could or had some type of say over to wear a hijab. My wife who left Indonesia in the latter 70s says you would never see a hijab then. I like to ask those that encourage them if the women of today with their hijabs are more or better Muslims than those from yesterday who never wore one? That would include their mothers.

As for the loud speakers, same groups encouraged them and yes, according to our expert, Dan from Ache, the Quran actually says prayers should be delivered in a quiet tone.

It has been quite some time now since I believe it was one of the current moderators here that posted a link to a paper authored by a man from the ME explaining Indonesian Islam and where the customs and traditions came from. The radical mass organizations of today, influanced by SA always led the way. If the person that posted that years ago remembers, if you still have the link, kindly post it again.

 

[Pak Tani]

Doesn't "the book" say all were created oerfect?

I dunno. You tell me?

 

[fastpitch17]

I dunno. You tell me?

Try reading it.

 

[Pak Tani]

Try reading it.

The burden of proof is upon the one who makes the claim.

It's not there, is it?

You're just making stuff up so you can bash islam.

 

[rabbit_39]

I dunno. You tell me?

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“We have indeed created humankind in the best of molds.”
Quran 95:4 (Surat At-Tin, The Fig)

“The work of Allah who has perfected everything (He created).
Qur’an 27:88 (An-Naml, The Ant)

“He is the One Who has made perfectly everything He has created: He began the creation of human beings with clay, And made his progeny from a quintessence of the nature of a fluid despised: But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit…”
Quran 32:7-9 (As-Sajdah, the Prostration)