new podcast: Indonesia's Defence Dilemma

[harryopal1]

I'll get a little anti-China for a moment.
I dislike the way they have infiltrated so many countries with money and promises. However, they build roads, schools, and develop industry rather than bomb and kill in order to get control.
If left with a choice, I'll go with the roads and industry.

Yes, but would you like to live in a society so monitored and controlled as is the case with China? After seeing what has taken place since taking over Hong Kong there must be many Taiwanese chewing their fingernail with anxiety.

 

[Dave70]

Yes, but would you like to live in a society so monitored and controlled as is the case with China? After seeing what has taken place since taking over Hong Kong there must be many Taiwanese chewing their fingernail with anxiety.

Since taking over Hong Kong ??? Did you know that there was no political freedom pre-1997 ? Who elected the Hong Kong governors? They were not elected but installed. Who could you vote for? Nobody. There was no free press, any criticism of the UK government or crown was treason. You could be arrested and locked up with no right to trial for 6 months. After 1997, there were numerous political parties. Anyone can stand for election, as long as he or she swore to uphold basic law. Something like the pledge to uphold the sanctity of Pancasila in Indonesia.

 

[Balifrog]

Yes, but would you like to live in a society so monitored and controlled as is the case with China? After seeing what has taken place since taking over Hong Kong there must be many Taiwanese chewing their fingernail with anxiety.

Well, at least they know what to expect.
They'll become just another province of China !

Would I like to live under a regime like the CCP ? No, but over the last 30 years they have moved 100's of million people out of poverty into the middle class.

And you don't bring a country up to modern western technological level without a very strong discipline.
Look at Japan, South Korea, Singapore..... Do you think Singapore is a democracy with freedom of speech and expression ?

 

[Dave70]

Money and power drive the very people who control most countries - Including the US and China.
As I mentioned in another post, at least the Chinese aren't bombing their way into the world.

I like the Chinese approach of a "shared future", "common prosperity", and "win-win solution".

 

[fastpitch17]

No

Invaded means to take over a place by force.
Guam was stolen from the Spanish (Who had previously stolen it) in the Spanish-American War
Hawaii was stolen from the locals because of greed. Rigged elections don't excuse the invasion.
Both are now militarised. It's a little hard to condemn the Chinese for doing this on uninhabited islands when the country complaining did exactly the same on inhabited islands.
It's the same when it comes to the US talking about Chinese military bases outside China. The US has far mo commonly because they invaded countries and built without asking the locals.
China asked and didn't invade anyone.

I'm still trying to work out the world threat posed by China. Their forces, except for the new aircraft carriers, are all local. They have little to project military power beyond their home seas.

It's history, not something to get upset about,

Bloodless invasion? The US was at war with Spain. Sailed into Guam harbor. Spain surrendered since no one told the garrison they were at war.

Currious to hear just what China's home seas are? The internationally recognized one or the one they claim with all the islands owned by other nations?

 

[fastpitch17]

US school version ?

Not at all. I know the French like to hide but even these facts can be looked up.

 

[harryopal1]

Well, at least they know what to expect.
They'll become just another province of China !

Would I like to live under a regime like the CCP ? No, but over the last 30 years they have moved 100's of million people out of poverty into the middle class.

And you don't bring a country up to modern western technological level without a very strong discipline.
Look at Japan, South Korea, Singapore..... Do you think Singapore is a democracy with freedom of speech and expression ?

Yes, the lifting people out of abject poverty has been a great achievement and indicative of what can happen when resources are not exploited by imperialism. However, China is also becoming an imperialist power but without dropping bombs. Having lived in Singapore I agree that there are serious limits with freedom of speech and expression.
But if China were 10 for social control I would rate Singapore at about 4.

 

[Bob]

I was thinking about this subject, and thought of how because of those invasions, all the wonderful things that came from it! Such as! Chilies, and Chocolate, coming to Asia, from Mexico! I hear the Vietnamese make delicious sandwiches, daily with bread made from French ideas! Look at how all the World now, makes delicious treats for the Christmas season, with yummy spices, Cinnamon, Cloves, Nutmeg, Mace, Anise, Cardamon, Etc. Corn from South America, Morphine from the Poppies! Cocaine derivatives, for help with Dental work!
So I hope this puts a more positive note on this subject!

All that would have been possible through trade without colonization.

 

[Bob]

Invaded means to take over a place by force.
Guam was stolen from the Spanish (Who had previously stolen it) in the Spanish-American War
Hawaii was stolen from the locals because of greed. Rigged elections don't excuse the invasion.
Both are now militarised. It's a little hard to condemn the Chinese for doing this on uninhabited islands when the country complaining did exactly the same on inhabited islands.
It's the same when it comes to the US talking about Chinese military bases outside China. The US has far more, commonly because they invaded countries and built without asking the locals.
China asked and didn't invade anyone.

I'm still trying to work out the world threat posed by China. Their forces, except for the new aircraft carriers, are all local. They have little to project military power beyond their home seas.

It's history, not something to get upset about,

I don't recall PRC asking Vietnam, Malaysia, and the Philippines if they could take and militarize their territory. Nor do I remember them asking Indonesia if they could assert their 'traditional' fishing rights in the Natuna Sea.

 

[Bob]

Well, at least they know what to expect.
They'll become just another province of China !

Would I like to live under a regime like the CCP ? No, but over the last 30 years they have moved 100's of million people out of poverty into the middle class.

And you don't bring a country up to modern western technological level without a very strong discipline.
Look at Japan, South Korea, Singapore..... Do you think Singapore is a democracy with freedom of speech and expression ?

Do the US and France have strong discipline? I'd say no. Yet their technology is top of the line.

 

[Balifrog]

Do the US and France have strong discipline? I'd say no. Yet their technology is top of the line.

Yes, but it took us 200 years to go from horse cart, to steam engine, to diesel engine and now to E.V.
China went from the horse cart and bicycle to E.V. in 40 years
And on top of that they are the best at it...E.V. batteries nearly all come from China.
I worked in.Korea in 85, and I can see where they are now 40 years later.
Shipbuilding, cars, electronics...

 

[fastpitch17]

Yes, but it took us 200 years to go from horse cart, to steam engine, to diesel engine and now to E.V.
China went from the horse cart and bicycle to E.V. in 40 years
And on top of that they are the best at it...E.V. batteries nearly all come from China.
I worked in.Korea in 85, and I can see where they are now 40 years later.
Shipbuilding, cars, electronics...

Yes in deed. Rapid advancement in technology. Funny how that happens while your ships, planes, and a whole list of technology duplicates the West ships, planes, and a whole list of technologies. I will admit that china leads in stealing other people's advancements.

 

[centurion]

Yes I agree about the US, doing these horrible things, before and now, as you say! But you seem to think, the other Colonizers, were such Saints, and only helped, these Third World countries, while they exploited them! Give us a break, This is Hogwash! I don't think here in Indonesia, 400 years ago, When then Dutch came, that they were here, just to help these Indonesian people! They wanted the Spices, Cloves, Nutmeg, Mace, Cinnamon! And somehow, I don't think they came here, and treated these people kindly!
And what about Vietnam? Do you think the French were there, just to teach them how to make Baguettes! Please elaborate why the French came to Vietnam, such a long time ago? I don't mean to offend you, Balifrog! I know how patriotic you are, with being French!

Yes, and not to forget, how lovely the Spanish, treated the natives in Mexico, and South America!
I admit, I am not an expert on these matters, but I do have an inkling on the subject. So let's discuss this subject in an objective manner.

Don't forget the Arabs and Turks.

 

[Balifrog]

I will admit that china leads in stealing other people's advancements.

Well, they didn't need to steal it....We gave it to them !
Tesla, Apple, BMW, VW, and 100's of others set up factories over there, or went in J/V or subcontracted.
I had things manufactured in China (from France), like clamshells, big bearings etc... of course we supplied them the drawings.

And how you think Japan, South Korea or Taiwan did ? They copied from the West...

BTW, how do you think the US space program was realized ?
"Operation Paperclip" rings a bell ?
Werner Von Braun who ended at a top position at NASA was the father of the V1 / V2, a nazi who used slave labor in WW2. Same as 100's of other German / Nazi scientist the US brought over...

Relax, France and Russia did the same..

It's all a fair game. Everybody steals and copies everyone !

 

[Dave70]

Yes in deed. Rapid advancement in technology. Funny how that happens while your ships, planes, and a whole list of technology duplicates the West ships, planes, and a whole list of technologies. I will admit that china leads in stealing other people's advancements.

In trade wars of 200 years ago, the pirates were Americans

Intellectual pirates were celebrated in the young United States, just as they are now in China. A man who smuggled a cotton-processing machine from London was hailed by one Pennsylvania trade group as "the ingenious artizan who counterfeited the Carding and Spinning Machine" and was promised awards

apnews.com

WASHINGTON (AP) — The upstart nation was a den of intellectual piracy. One of its top officials urged his countrymen to steal and copy foreign machinery. Across the ocean, a leading industrial power tried in vain to guard its trade secrets from the brash young rival.

In the late 18th and early 19th centuries, the rogue nation was the United States. The official endorsing thievery was Treasury Secretary Alexander Hamilton. And the main victim was Britain.

How times have changed.

Now, the United States accuses China of the very sort of illicit practices that helped America leapfrog European rivals two centuries ago and emerge as an industrial giant.

The message we are sending to China today is, Do as I say, not as I did,′ ” said Peter Andreas, professor at Brown University’s Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs. “The fact of the matter is that the U.S. was the world’s hotbed of intellectual property theft.”

 

[Shadrach]

Well, they didn't need to steal it....We gave it to them !
Tesla, Apple, BMW, VW, and 100's of others set up factories over there, or went in J/V or subcontracted.
I had things manufactured in China (from France), like clamshells, big bearings etc... of course we supplied them the drawings.

And how you think Japan, South Korea or Taiwan did ? They copied from the West...

BTW, how do you think the US space program was realized ?
"Operation Paperclip" rings a bell ?
Werner Von Braun who ended at a top position at NASA was the father of the V1 / V2, a nazi who used slave labor in WW2. Same as 100's of other German / Nazi scientist the US brought over...

Relax, France and Russia did the same..

It's all a fair game. Everybody steals and copies everyone !

I was always told, that Two Wrongs, Don't Make a Right!
I personally don't understand why all the Governments, Corporations, people in Power, put all their energy, into Selfishness, Greed, Corruption Power Grabs, etc. why can't people just get along and figure out how to help each Other? If all this Money wasted on these things, was spent on Medical Breakthroughs, there would a Cure, for all Diseases!

 

[Balifrog]

I was always told, that Two Wrongs, Don't Make a Right!

That's the "moral theory"... Than you have the realpolitik !

 

[Shadrach]

I was always told, that Two Wrongs, Don't Make a Right!
I personally don't understand why all the Governments, Corporations, people in Power, put all their energy, into Selfishness, Greed, Corruption Power Grabs, etc. why can't people just get along and figure out how to help each Other? If all this Money wasted on these things, was spent on Medical Breakthroughs, there would a Cure, for all Diseases!

Comment anyone?

 

[Balifrog]

Comment anyone?

the things you mentionned are those that have been driving the world since 1000's of years....
I guess it's human nature ? After all we are just another version of animals....
And A.I. ain't gonna do it any good !

 

[fastpitch17]

Well, they didn't need to steal it....We gave it to them !
Tesla, Apple, BMW, VW, and 100's of others set up factories over there, or went in J/V or subcontracted.
I had things manufactured in China (from France), like clamshells, big bearings etc... of course we supplied them the drawings.

And how you think Japan, South Korea or Taiwan did ? They copied from the West...

BTW, how do you think the US space program was realized ?
"Operation Paperclip" rings a bell ?
Werner Von Braun who ended at a top position at NASA was the father of the V1 / V2, a nazi who used slave labor in WW2. Same as 100's of other German / Nazi scientist the US brought over...

Relax, France and Russia did the same..

It's all a fair game. Everybody steals and copies everyone !

The question was concerning china's faster tech boom than the other tech giants. Stealing tech made it quicker. Sure, everyone steals but you can't steal something not realized yet. That takes time.