New Education Minister

[Pak Asam Manis]

Okay, so America has gone to hell in a hand basket, it's got nothing to do with the fact that Indonesia has a long ways to go to achieve what is common in many other countries.

There you go again ... that's not what I said. It's like you're only capable of focusing on "the glass is half empty" (or mostly empty) rather than "the glass is partly empty, and partly full" ... can't things be a bit more complex than "everything sucks" or "everything's A-ok"?

Of course, but should we compare how many times a foreigner is treated better by an Indonesian compared to a foreigner is treated worse by an Indonesian? Even if it is at even odds 50-50 the point is that just because life is a certain way for a foreigner in Indonesia doesn't mean that other people living in that country can't criticize, harshly even, the conditions of that country.

Who said nobody can criticize? You say your opinion, I say mine. I was simply pointing something out: you say foreigners have an unrealistic, rosy glasses view of Indonesia or Indonesians because we have a better experience here and are treated differently - and better - than Indonesians are. I pointed out that this is not always true ... go ahead, criticize away.

Should we then browse through the news about what happened to indonesians taking your same means of transportation?

(Shrug) Feel free if you like ... I'm sure that from a general population of some 250 million or more people, and a commuting workforce of whatever percent of that, you will find plenty of stories of people who were mugged, robbed, raped or even murdered ... not unlike the similar stories you may find in India or China or the US. But the stories you may find in the news aside, I'm sure that for the vast majority of them, they went to work, they went home, nothing happened to them, as long as they didn't "tabrak" somebody else and somebody else didn't "tabrak" them, end of story. The news don't usually report such instances, no matter how many millions of times it happens, because it's kind of boring ya know: "person went to work ... person finished work, went home ... currently eating dinner ... now back to you in the studio": nope, never makes the news, doesn't mean it doesn't happen though.

If you want to make a general conversation about how Indonesia and Indonesians suck, as you seem to, I suggest you to make a new thread about it, so this one can stay more focused to the topic of education specifically ...

 

[atlantis]

(but might not be too far from the truth)
As an aside Atlantis- I am trying to understand your signature- I assume it is Bhs Manado - would you care to share some translation ?

Yes, you've assumed correctly. It is Bahasa manado and is the equivalent in bahasa Indonesia to Kita Semua Bersaudara or, explained in English, we are all bros and sis, all a big family, whatever religion, political ideas, color of skin, size of shoes...etc we have. It's one of the most famous Manadonese motto (with "si tou timou tumou tou"*) and it is here something that one can witness everyday, not just words said to look cool. The majority does not impose anything to the minorities and communities live in harmony because this is taught and experienced since a very young age. Everyday which passes I feel I am blessed that my own kids live in such conducive environment.

When reading your question an anecdote came to my mind. As you perhaps know, Sulawesi utara hosts the last remaining synagogue of Indonesia. The local Rabbi, Yaakov Baruch, has, during the last Ramadhan, invited leaders of the muslim community to break fast in the Synagogue. They accepted with joy and came. Do I need to say more?


* I will add it to my sig so that you ask me the meaning of it. Another GREAT motto which contributes to explain why SulUt is such a cool place.

 

[Nimbus]

My wife attended sekolah negeri as well as all her family members did and do to this day, but I personally have no experience of them. I will admit that from what I read and hear, or see on tv what image is formed in my head of them is not inconsistent with what you have said here.

My personal experience as a student in Indonesia was at international school (JES, which became not long after that JIS) and my experience as a teacher at "Nat Plus" (now SPK). What I can say is that although SPK is, I believe, still considered as a "national school", the learning environment and instruction are pretty much night and day from what you describe: that is, "obedience" is certainly not the priority, questioning, creativity, inquiry and independent / critical thinking are very much encouraged ... but yes,I do have the impression that this kind of learning / teaching atmosphere is quite different from the norm of "sekolah negeri", or at least the majority of them.

There was no national plus school during my time, only regular public schools and international ones (not accessible to most Indonesians). The education was mainly designed to maximize your national exam scores, called EBTANAS (Evaluasi Belajar Tahap Akhir Nasional = National Final Stage Study Evaluation). The only good thing about this exam was that it ranked you nationally among your peers, which was then used to determine your eligibility to enroll in top public schools, and to some degree universities.

The prevalent attitude was that independent learning and personal responsibility were the province of university students or 'mahasiswa' (literally 'ultimate student'). K-12 students were called simply 'siswa' (student), and we were taught little beyond memorizing and regurgitating textbook material.

When I was younger I was the typical teacher's pet, but as I entered high school this system felt pointless and constricting. My grades were declining slightly because I was bored, the only saving grace in my school was it heavily encouraged extra curricular activities. This was where I learned real life skills like leadership, competitiveness, and organization. Presence of extra curricular activities was often the mark of top schools, as they cost money and only affluent parents could support them.

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

There was no national plus school during my time, only regular public schools and international ones (not accessible to most Indonesians). The education was mainly designed to maximize your national exam scores, called EBTANAS (Evaluasi Belajar Tahap Akhir Nasional = National Final Stage Study Evaluation). The only good thing about this exam was that it ranked you nationally among your peers, which was then used to determine your eligibility to enroll in top public schools, and to some degree universities.

The prevalent attitude was that independent learning and personal responsibility were the province of university students or 'mahasiswa' (literally 'ultimate student'). K-12 students were called simply 'siswa' (student), and we were taught little beyond memorizing and regurgitating textbook material.

I would guess that the time period we were respectively in K-12 is not too far apart. Apart from a year in a British school in Kuwait when I was 4-5, and three and a half years at JES, all my schooling was in the public schools in the US. From what I can tell, the experience in the public school system in the US has also changed quite a lot - and is probably vastly improved in some ways - from what it was when I was in school some thirty-five to forty-five years ago. One thing that probably has not changed that much is "teaching for the test" and over-reliance / prioritization of standardized test prep.

But when I was in school in the US, creativity, independent learning and critical thinking were not valued, taught or encouraged much more highly, if at all, than they were / are in Indonesian public schools. They certainly did not seem to be valued highly in my subjective opinion or experience.

When I was younger I was the typical teacher's pet, but as I entered high school this system felt pointless and constricting. My grades were declining slightly because I was bored, the only saving grace in my school was it heavily encouraged extra curricular activities. This was where I learned real life skills like leadership, competitiveness, and organization. Presence of extra curricular activities was often the mark of top schools, as they cost money and only affluent parents could support them.

This sounds a LOT like my experience in public school* in Texas in the late 70s / early 8os.

(* For readers from the UK - and Australia? - in the US "public school" means the opposite of what is apparently meant by the same term in the UK ... "public schools" in the US are the equivalent of "government schools" , ie, publically funded)

 

[Bad_azz]

My schooling was rather Victorian in style- lots of corporal punishment, humiliation punishment, teachers telling kids they would go nowhere because they lacked intelligence .. all the kinds of things that are frowned upon today.
I don't recall much in the way of any teachers being encouraging or supportive- I am sure there were a couple over the years, the ones I recall most are the ones who terrorised me.
So I found myself not integrating well, often bullied & not at all confident of my academic abilities. BUT - I had great parents & grandparents, their input taught me so much more than school did.
I learnt many life skills, my basic maths was learnt by going shopping with my stingy grandfather and then having to go thru the receipt and the price labels on every item to check that none had been missed. I learnt stock rotation from having to put the groceries away, I learnt food hygiene etc from how I had to store the meat & vegetables etc.
I learnt sewing & pattern-making from my aunt who stayed with us for a few years.
I learnt about animal care from having pets & being taught how to care for them at home.
I learnt reading at a very early age- the newspaper was my version of Janet & John.
I did not learn cooking from my gran, she could burn a pan of water- ha!

Today way too much emphasis is put on buying a good education & too little is put on what is actually needed to have a successful & happy life.
Quite possibly because technology has replaced a lot of life skills. Teach a child how to read & write and do maths, encourage a child to have an enquiring mind, teach them the basics about bias and show them the tools to learn. i.e. the internet, books & family activities and the child will teach itself what it is interested in knowing.
(very Montessori style, I guess) but I am a firm believer in child led development.
I am not a believer in throwing tens of thousands of pounds/dollars/millions of rupiahs to fund an elite system that shits on those who are not so "privileged".
It makes me sick to the core that such systems are still being propagated in this day & age.
My gran's wise words were you get out of your kids what you put into them- talking about time and energy and encouragement and love- not cash.

rant over... as you were

 

[Puspawarna]

(Shrug) Feel free if you like ... I'm sure that from a general population of some 250 million or more people, and a commuting workforce of whatever percent of that, you will find plenty of stories of people who were mugged, robbed, raped or even murdered ... not unlike the similar stories you may find in India or China or the US. But the stories you may find in the news aside, I'm sure that for the vast majority of them, they went to work, they went home, nothing happened to them, as long as they didn't "tabrak" somebody else and somebody else didn't "tabrak" them, end of story.

But it isn't the end of the story. You are overlooking the indecencies that ordinary citizens face every day, if they are pregnant/burdened with small children, disabled, or a target of unwanted groping and similar behaviors that can cause extreme discomfort. Public transit (not to mention the difficulty of even getting to the bus stop, if you happen to be - for example - blind) can be uncomfortable, humiliating, or simply impossible to use for a wide swath of people.

Yes, marginalization of women and people with disabilities happens in other countries too; it's not a uniquely Indonesian phenomenon. But countries like the United States are doing much better in terms of societal recognition of the need for inclusiveness, not to mention expenditures on the infrastructure that makes public transport accessible.

Of course, the US is a richer, more developed country, so it has the luxury of focusing on "details" like these. Yet if Indonesia hopes to take its rightful place among the developed countries of the world, it needs to acknowledge the needs of all of its citizens, not just say "end of story" because no one was robbed.

(Here's a youtube video you might consider watching if you'd like to educate yourself on the subject - keep in mind that this was designed to be positive and to encourage change. The same research that produced this video could have resulted in a MUCH harsher report, but that might have had the reverse of the intended effect if it merely offended the people and institutions in a position to do something about it.)

- - - -
Apologies - the above is straying pretty far from the topic of education. But at the end of the day, it's all related: Indonesia's education system needs to nurture critical, visionary thinkers who can solve problems like the abysmal state of most public transport. And the system needs to be inclusive, since you never know - the most creative, effective problem-solver might just happen to be a person in a wheelchair or a woman with children.

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

But it isn't the end of the story. You are overlooking the indecencies that ordinary citizens face every day, if they are pregnant/burdened with small children, disabled, or a target of unwanted groping and similar behaviors that can cause extreme discomfort. Public transit (not to mention the difficulty of even getting to the bus stop, if you happen to be - for example - blind) can be uncomfortable, humiliating, or simply impossible to use for a wide swath of people.

Yes, marginalization of women and people with disabilities happens in other countries too; it's not a uniquely Indonesian phenomenon. But countries like the United States are doing much better in terms of societal recognition of the need for inclusiveness, not to mention expenditures on the infrastructure that makes public transport accessible.

Of course, the US is a richer, more developed country, so it has the luxury of focusing on "details" like these. Yet if Indonesia hopes to take its rightful place among the developed countries of the world, it needs to acknowledge the needs of all of its citizens, not just say "end of story" because no one was robbed.

(Here's a youtube video you might consider watching if you'd like to educate yourself on the subject - keep in mind that this was designed to be positive and to encourage change. The same research that produced this video could have resulted in a MUCH harsher report, but that might have had the reverse of the intended effect if it merely offended the people and institutions in a position to do something about it.)

- - - -
Apologies - the above is straying pretty far from the topic of education. But at the end of the day, it's all related: Indonesia's education system needs to nurture critical, visionary thinkers who can solve problems like the abysmal state of most public transport. And the system needs to be inclusive, since you never know - the most creative, effective problem-solver might just happen to be a person in a wheelchair or a woman with children.

Sorry, my post above yours may have been unclear. When I said that I was using a means of transport which exposed me to the public, I didn't actually mean nor was I thinking about "public transport" (though I did commute by angkot for a short time).

I did not mean to be dismissive of the problems Indonesian citizens, regardless of gender, etc, may face in traveling. I was thinking more about Indonesians on motorcycles more or less anonymously traveling from point A to point B without being yelled at by strangers. It's sort of a case of apples and oranges, I think. I was thinking that the "majority" of Indonesians are able to communicate without much unwanted social interaction, but you make a good point about issues faced by women, particularly,or disabled people, when using forms of public transportation.

In any case, I'll try to "educate myself", thanks!

 

[Puspawarna]

I did not mean to be dismissive of the problems Indonesian citizens, regardless of gender, etc, may face in traveling. I was thinking more about Indonesians on motorcycles more or less anonymously traveling from point A to point B without being yelled at by strangers.

I appreciate the sentiments...And those motorcyclists are another story, for sure. (We could probably have at least 3 or 4 spin-off threads at this point, so I'm going to stop now.)

 

[HappyMan]

Since we we've been going on about critical thinking and whatnot, I thought I'd paste a few Cognitive Reflection questions up for you guys to play with:
1. A bat and a ball cost $1.10 in total. The bat costs $1.00 more than the ball. How much does the ball cost?
2. If it takes 5 machines 5 minutes to make 5 widgets, how long would it take 100 machines to make 100 widgets?
3. In a lake, there is a patch of lily pads. Every day, the patch doubles in size. If it takes 48 days for the patch to cover the entire lake, how long would it take for the patch to cover half of the lake?

Answers here (if you didn't experience an "oh, that's it", "I'm so clever", or "flip" moment, you should probably check them): http://philosophy.hku.hk/think/critical/CRT.php

 

[HappyMan]

Also, if anyone is interested in the topic of critical thinking for itself, I found this Kahn Academy course (that I don't quite have time for), try it out for me? https://www.khanacademy.org/partner-content/wi-phi/critical-thinking

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

Since we we've been going on about critical thinking and whatnot, I thought I'd paste a few Cognitive Reflection questions up for you guys to play with:
1. A bat and a ball cost $1.10 in total. The bat costs $1.00 more than the ball. How much does the ball cost?
2. If it takes 5 machines 5 minutes to make 5 widgets, how long would it take 100 machines to make 100 widgets?
3. In a lake, there is a patch of lily pads. Every day, the patch doubles in size. If it takes 48 days for the patch to cover the entire lake, how long would it take for the patch to cover half of the lake?

Answers here (if you didn't experience an "oh, that's it", "I'm so clever", or "flip" moment, you should probably check them): http://philosophy.hku.hk/think/critical/CRT.php

1. (squiggly face)

2. 100 minutes ?

3. I don't have enough time to watch them, I have to go now.


(edit) 0/3 ! bodoh!

 

[HappyMan]

1. (squiggly face)

2. 100 minutes ?

3. I don't have enough time to watch them, I have to go now.


(edit) 0/3 ! bodoh!

I guess three years of education was enough to teach you everything you need to know!

I was educated at a series of wonderful Christian Schools in America, so I was able to answer these questions correctly the first time I googled them. Hooray me!

 

[dafluff]

My personal experience as a student in Indonesia was at international school (JES, which became not long after that JIS) and my experience as a teacher at "Nat Plus" (now SPK). What I can say is that although SPK is, I believe, still considered as a "national school", the learning environment and instruction are pretty much night and day from what you describe: that is, "obedience" is certainly not the priority, questioning, creativity, inquiry and independent / critical thinking are very much encouraged ... but yes,I do have the impression that this kind of learning / teaching atmosphere is quite different from the norm of "sekolah negeri", or at least the majority of them.

Yes, my experience is based on the "regular" national schools, as "national plus" was not available at the time. I understand that some National Plus are significantly better.

 

[rabbit_39]

I had forgotten that some of you guys are teachers. Maybe this is of interest, in relation to education in Indonesia.

I used to be very active in volunteering for extracurricular activities for STEM activities. I've done workshops and classroom visits for over 1000 students in total. Two of the things I was really into were FIRST robotics and SAE's A World in Motion program.

Starting a FIRST program is a bit costly. But AWIM can be quite cost efficient. And if I can find the right partner and play our cards right, maybe even free.

So check out this website http://awim.sae.org and see if it is something you can and want to see if it can be implemented at your school. Let me know and I'll see if I can still make it happen.

I tried it when I first came to Jakarta but the teachers and school principals I approached didn't want to implement anything new.

Feel free to pm me if you have questions about it. Basically the curriculum can be used not just for STEM but also for language arts, project skills, team work, etc

Thanks.

 

[HappyMan]

That is super-cool, Rabbit. I wonder if my kid's school might be interested. But first, I had a poke around their web-page and it looked like all the course materials and stuff are in English. Is that right? I ask because my kid's school teaches in BI.

 

[rabbit_39]

Yes it is all in English. Maybe we can do a group effort and translate it into Indonesian?

 

[HappyMan]

Yes it is all in English. Maybe we can do a group effort and translate it into Indonesian?

That is interesting. I'll run it by the wife, chances of me translating something into Indonesian that is fit for educational purposes...

 

[William King]

I hate to be a negative Nancy, but robotics programmes have been flavour of the month for a.decade or more. Plenty of competition, including BI materials.

Also, these sort of drop in and out programmes, firstly they are often stand alone, meaning they do not contribute to a coherent and connected curriculum, which reduces their effectiveness. Secondly they are rarely self sustainable, meaning they do not train the trainer to implement, but rather require the school to invest in outsiders and outside materials each year.

Great business model for making a profit... but not particularly great for a systematic change in schools. ( I may well be incorrect with regards to this company/group.but I cannot help but feel cynical when I see they require a cost, but are also soliciting donations, or when they claim to be working on a cause, but offer full time employment.)

 

[HappyMan]

Yes it is all in English. Maybe we can do a group effort and translate it into Indonesian?

Turns out they are full up (4 days as week) on extra-curricular activities, some of which are similar to the ones on the site. The list for this term has just come out and includes robotics and Kid Quest (problem solving adventures). I'm actually a bit surprised that the 5 year-olds are doing robotics, had thought it was legos till six or so.

 

[William King]

Legos are the beginning of robotics.