New Education Minister

[Pak Asam Manis]

You love to take a bit here and a bit there that someone says and run it all together to make an argument. Sorry, play your games without me. Go report me for being a big nasty ass in my comments and your thin skin gets hurt once again. Sorry, you can play with yourself.

Um, no, no report from me, though if you are trying to characterize me as someone who typically runs in the house to tell Mom and Dad, you have a case of mistaken identity there for sure ... Anyway, I have written my usual pithy retort but have thought better of how I spend my time or towards whom I expend my limited stocks of energy. Have a nice day!

 

[Nimbus]

This is beginning to feel like the old board again where sparks flew. Good sign?

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

He started it!

 

[Puspawarna]

This is beginning to feel like the old board again where sparks flew. Good sign?

A good sign as long as the debate stays focused on the issues. Should it devolve into personal attacks or name calling, I will be a sad, sad moderator.

 

[kimdub]

Sounds to me like a lot of the points made are from the ability to send a child to an elite type of school, whether public or private. I suppose just about every country has elite educational facilities for those that can afford them. So if I have the luck or financial ability to live in a district with top notch educational facilities, I don't think I should use that as the standard available to everyone.

 

[rabbit_39]

nevertheless she is chock full of imagination, dreams, creative thinking and independent / critical thinking. Her Indonesian education did not "strip away" those qualities from her at all. Maybe she is just truly exceptional, I dunno.

As I said before, she is that way DESPITE the education system. The one thing you'll never convince me is that the past and current Indonesian education system (with the exception of a handful of schools, school administrators and teachers) nurtures and encourages creativity, independent and critical thinking, and problem solving attitude. If you believe otherwise, we can just agree to disagree.

You and I and I am sure even FP have met at least 1 person (probably a few) who are just like your wife. But it's not because of the Indonesian education system, it's despite of. They just have a strong character that didn't let their spirit die in school to become sheeples. Those are exactly the people I've met and when I can try to work with and if I'm in a position to, assist in fulfilling their potential. Some don't need it and are even people I look up to. But again, they are so DESPITE of the Indonesian education system. It is them as individuals who make them who they are.

The argument from the beginning, from my point of view, is that the Indonesian education system need to change so that people are encouraged to succeed, to think creatively, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with that... Granted my delivery may have been a bit Spock-like

 

[rabbit_39]

RAbbit, you may not realize it, but we have had this "conversation" before and I'm not foolish enough to expect a rabbit to change it's , er, stripes.

And without a clear logical reason to, I'm pretty set in my ways. I like to think that I am open minded enough that I will change my position when it is supported by logic. Unfortunately, a strong memory is not in my portfolio of talents

Your Spock-like reliance on "logic", as always, underwhelms me. Logic certainly has its place, but so do intangibles which defy logic (let's just call them "magical properties" to be concise).

But if someone can't reason out even this "magical properties" other than saying "it's magic", what's the strength of that conviction? Other than just saying "Indonesia is my country", don't you think a person should have a stronger reason to actually be patriotic about? It can be as simple as "I see the potential in Indonesia and I want to be part of its growth". Or "I love the idea of what Indonesia can be". Anything that shows that one is patriotic for another reason other than the brainwashing.

So you admit that "Indonesia may have one or two things, in its history or current context, to be proud of". Rabbit! Are you getting soft in your old age?

haha not really. I've always known this, but my belief is that as a whole, there's not enough to be proud of to offset what is there to be embarassed about

I understand your point. Mine is that you should really try to lighten up just a bit on Indonesians and their country. Sure there are huge problems and issues and many of them are created or at least often seem to be made worse, not better, by Indonesian government actions or inactions and even, to some extent, those of the Indonesian people as a whole. I'll go so far as to stipulate these things, in general.

I guess I've always been a problem solver, and the first step in solving problems is to define the problem, not hide it. I guess I'm at a phase in my life now where I believe that it's better to confront things head on just have it in the open so that they can be properly resolved

But you say that neither the Indonesian governments nor the people themselves - at least not all the ones you personally know or can observe - are really even trying to make things better. Therefore, "they deserve what they get, and they get what they deserve", right?

Not quite. It's more like "look, you're not even aware of the problems and/or what you're doing is wrong. I'm telling you like it is in the off chance that 1 out of 1000 of you will see it and start making changes too"


I can see how you might perceive my attitude to be that harsh based on what I've said. And it's probably true, I am harsh. But I would like to believe that it's needed in order to get people to realize what's wrong and what needs to be done to resolve it.

I just find this attitude to be harsh and depressing, myself, even if there is some degree of truth in it, and it seems sad for someone to live in a country which they seem to view so negatively.

Well, now that's something we can both agree on. I'm simply using my logic here, and as long as there's a reason for me to put in efforts AND have a chance to be involved in fixing a part of Indonesia's problems, I'll likely stay. The reason can be financial, pride, whatever, it depends on the project(s) I'm working on. As soon as there are no projects that give me those reasons, I'll probably seriously rethink my position.


As an aside, don't forget that while Indonesia has a lot of positives for foreigners and the family members, this may not be true for Indonesians themselves. What I mean is that I've observed that Indonesians treat each other very horribly in some situations. And if we don't remember or realize that this is happening, we can forget that Indonesia still has a long ways to go.


On the flip side of that paragraph, we have to make sure that the "positives" that we're seeing about Indonesia is a real positive. The extreme of this is the foreigners who live, work, and play in the ivory towers. Most of us are a lot more grounded than that, but still, Indonesians in general treat foreigners differently. And we need to realize this fact and see through that veil.

 

[fastpitch17]

As I said before, she is that way DESPITE the education system. The one thing you'll never convince me is that the past and current Indonesian education system (with the exception of a handful of schools, school administrators and teachers) nurtures and encourages creativity, independent and critical thinking, and problem solving attitude. If you believe otherwise, we can just agree to disagree.

You and I and I am sure even FP have met at least 1 person (probably a few) who are just like your wife. But it's not because of the Indonesian education system, it's despite of. They just have a strong character that didn't let their spirit die in school to become sheeples. Those are exactly the people I've met and when I can try to work with and if I'm in a position to, assist in fulfilling their potential. Some don't need it and are even people I look up to. But again, they are so DESPITE of the Indonesian education system. It is them as individuals who make them who they are.

The argument from the beginning, from my point of view, is that the Indonesian education system need to change so that people are encouraged to succeed, to think creatively, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with that... Granted my delivery may have been a bit Spock-like

 

[rabbit_39]

Sounds to me like a lot of the points made are from the ability to send a child to an elite type of school, whether public or private. I suppose just about every country has elite educational facilities for those that can afford them. So if I have the luck or financial ability to live in a district with top notch educational facilities, I don't think I should use that as the standard available to everyone.

That's not my view. Mine is that the Indonesian education system need to be fixed so that everyone has access to an education system whose standards encourage all of the positive values we've discussed (independent and critical thinking, creativity, problem solving attitude, etc). Sure some elite schools provide this now, but I want those opportunities to be available to all Indonesians. Therefore it is the education system, landscape and mindset that needs to be changed.

 

[William King]

Education Minister: Drug Abuse Danger Has Reached Alarming Level

Education Minister: Drug Abuse Danger Has Reached Alarming Level

TEMPO.CO, Jakarta - Education and Culture Minister Muhadjir Effendy said the danger posed by drug abuse in Indonesia has reached an alarming level.
According to him, smuggling of narcotics and dangerous drugs into Indonesia is now done in a very sophisticated way.
"The smuggling has already been done in advanced level and with advanced weapons," the Minister saidon Saturday (30/7).
Therefore, Muhadjir urged the people to stay alert against drug smuggling that is now very sophisticated.
"I urge the people to be more vigilant," he said.

read more here

But I'm not sure what that has to do with his new position, unless he plans new anti drug measures for schools.....

 

[HappyMan]

Education Minister: Drug Abuse Danger Has Reached Alarming Level

TEMPO.CO, Jakarta - Education and Culture Minister Muhadjir Effendy said the danger posed by drug abuse in Indonesia has reached an alarming level.
According to him, smuggling of narcotics and dangerous drugs into Indonesia is now done in a very sophisticated way.
"The smuggling has already been done in advanced level and with advanced weapons," the Minister saidon Saturday (30/7).
Therefore, Muhadjir urged the people to stay alert against drug smuggling that is now very sophisticated.
"I urge the people to be more vigilant," he said.

read more here

But I'm not sure what that has to do with his new position, unless he plans new anti drug measures for schools.....

On a side note, Tempo has the worst google translate ever...

 

[atlantis]

But I'm not sure what that has to do with his new position, unless he plans new anti drug measures for schools.....

Plans to suppress mathematics and science to replace them by a training at the nearest shooting range?

 

[Bad_azz]

Plans to suppress mathematics and science to replace them by a training at the nearest shooting range?

(but might not be too far from the truth)
As an aside Atlantis- I am trying to understand your signature- I assume it is Bhs Manado - would you care to share some translation ?

 

[dafluff]

As I said before, she is that way DESPITE the education system. The one thing you'll never convince me is that the past and current Indonesian education system (with the exception of a handful of schools, school administrators and teachers) nurtures and encourages creativity, independent and critical thinking, and problem solving attitude. If you believe otherwise, we can just agree to disagree.

You and I and I am sure even FP have met at least 1 person (probably a few) who are just like your wife. But it's not because of the Indonesian education system, it's despite of. They just have a strong character that didn't let their spirit die in school to become sheeples. Those are exactly the people I've met and when I can try to work with and if I'm in a position to, assist in fulfilling their potential. Some don't need it and are even people I look up to. But again, they are so DESPITE of the Indonesian education system. It is them as individuals who make them who they are.

The argument from the beginning, from my point of view, is that the Indonesian education system need to change so that people are encouraged to succeed, to think creatively, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with that... Granted my delivery may have been a bit Spock-like

As a product of the National Indonesian schooling system, I can speak with authority when I say that I agree with this 100%.

The schools I attended (and they were all top ranked schools at the time), all systematically beat any creativity and independent thinking out of you. Their idea of education is regurgitating facts, forced memorization, obedience to authority and a cookie cutter approach to everything. There was never any group work or discussions or research projects. The entirety of education was a teacher writing on the black board and students writing things down. Never mind the copious amounts of time wasted on stuff that is basically just propaganda. I mean I could go on, but even now this pisses me off.

This is why my children will NEVER enroll in an National Indonesian school if I can help it, even if the international school the older one is enrolled in is at best average, and still cost something like 20x more than an Indonesian school.

 

[dafluff]

Education Minister: Drug Abuse Danger Has Reached Alarming Level

TEMPO.CO, Jakarta - Education and Culture Minister Muhadjir Effendy said the danger posed by drug abuse in Indonesia has reached an alarming level.
According to him, smuggling of narcotics and dangerous drugs into Indonesia is now done in a very sophisticated way.
"The smuggling has already been done in advanced level and with advanced weapons," the Minister saidon Saturday (30/7).
Therefore, Muhadjir urged the people to stay alert against drug smuggling that is now very sophisticated.
"I urge the people to be more vigilant," he said.

read more here

But I'm not sure what that has to do with his new position, unless he plans new anti drug measures for schools.....

It is a great sign that the new minister begins his job by talking about stuff that is at best peripherally related to his position...

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

And without a clear logical reason to, I'm pretty set in my ways. I like to think that I am open minded enough that I will change my position when it is supported by logic. Unfortunately, a strong memory is not in my portfolio of talents



But if someone can't reason out even this "magical properties" other than saying "it's magic", what's the strength of that conviction? Other than just saying "Indonesia is my country", don't you think a person should have a stronger reason to actually be patriotic about? It can be as simple as "I see the potential in Indonesia and I want to be part of its growth". Or "I love the idea of what Indonesia can be". Anything that shows that one is patriotic for another reason other than the brainwashing.



haha not really. I've always known this, but my belief is that as a whole, there's not enough to be proud of to offset what is there to be embarassed about



I guess I've always been a problem solver, and the first step in solving problems is to define the problem, not hide it. I guess I'm at a phase in my life now where I believe that it's better to confront things head on just have it in the open so that they can be properly resolved



Not quite. It's more like "look, you're not even aware of the problems and/or what you're doing is wrong. I'm telling you like it is in the off chance that 1 out of 1000 of you will see it and start making changes too"


I can see how you might perceive my attitude to be that harsh based on what I've said. And it's probably true, I am harsh. But I would like to believe that it's needed in order to get people to realize what's wrong and what needs to be done to resolve it.



Well, now that's something we can both agree on. I'm simply using my logic here, and as long as there's a reason for me to put in efforts AND have a chance to be involved in fixing a part of Indonesia's problems, I'll likely stay. The reason can be financial, pride, whatever, it depends on the project(s) I'm working on. As soon as there are no projects that give me those reasons, I'll probably seriously rethink my position.

Okay .... cheers.

(not necessarily meaning you've brought me around to your point of view, just that I appreciate your explanation, it is certainly "logical" enough and I will not continue the argument here, as I feel it would be done to little purpose.)

As an aside, don't forget that while Indonesia has a lot of positives for foreigners and the family members, this may not be true for Indonesians themselves. What I mean is that I've observed that Indonesians treat each other very horribly in some situations. And if we don't remember or realize that this is happening, we can forget that Indonesia still has a long ways to go.

Hmm ... sounds a lot like an accurate description of America and Americans to me ... interresting.

On the flip side of that paragraph, we have to make sure that the "positives" that we're seeing about Indonesia is a real positive. The extreme of this is the foreigners who live, work, and play in the ivory towers. Most of us are a lot more grounded than that, but still, Indonesians in general treat foreigners differently.

True, but that doesn't always mean "better". For example most Indonesians can commute back and forth between their home and their work without being hailed or assailed multiple times by total strangers along the road, from the "friendly": "Hey Mister! HOW ARE YOU!? to the not-so-much: "Hey Mister! (pause) "FuCKK YOU!!"

(I'm referring in large part to my own experience as a "non-Ivory Tower" TKA who for several years traveled to work by means under which I was exposed to the public constantly, not like traveling in an air conditioned mobil with tinted windows rolled up ... many other expats who've worked in the country though, would surely be able to confirm what I say)

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

(but might not be too far from the truth)
As an aside Atlantis- I am trying to understand your signature- I assume it is Bhs Manado - would you care to share some translation ?

I have no idea about "torang" and sure that it is from Manadonese, but I think the rest is something about "all brothers" (samua = semua, all and sudara, saudara, brother)

 

[Nimbus]

Sounds to me like a lot of the points made are from the ability to send a child to an elite type of school, whether public or private. I suppose just about every country has elite educational facilities for those that can afford them. So if I have the luck or financial ability to live in a district with top notch educational facilities, I don't think I should use that as the standard available to everyone.

It's just that the typical expat family can afford to send their kids to the best schools in the area. Of course it doesn't apply to everybody.

 

[rabbit_39]

Hmm ... sounds a lot like an accurate description of America and Americans to me ... interresting.

Okay, so America has gone to hell in a hand basket, it's got nothing to do with the fact that Indonesia has a long ways to go to achieve what is common in many other countries.

True, but that doesn't always mean "better". For example most Indonesians can commute back and forth between their home and their work without being hailed or assailed multiple times by total strangers along the road, from the "friendly": "Hey Mister! HOW ARE YOU!? to the not-so-much: "Hey Mister! (pause) "FuCKK YOU!!"

Of course, but should we compare how many times a foreigner is treated better by an Indonesian compared to a foreigner is treated worse by an Indonesian? Even if it is at even odds 50-50 the point is that just because life is a certain way for a foreigner in Indonesia doesn't mean that other people living in that country can't criticize, harshly even, the conditions of that country.

(I'm referring in large part to my own experience as a "non-Ivory Tower" TKA who for several years traveled to work by means under which I was exposed to the public constantly, not like traveling in an air conditioned mobil with tinted windows rolled up ... many other expats who've worked in the country though, would surely be able to confirm what I say)

Should we then browse through the news about what happened to indonesians taking your same means of transportation?

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

As a product of the National Indonesian schooling system, I can speak with authority when I say that I agree with this 100%.

The schools I attended (and they were all top ranked schools at the time), all systematically beat any creativity and independent thinking out of you. Their idea of education is regurgitating facts, forced memorization, obedience to authority and a cookie cutter approach to everything. There was never any group work or discussions or research projects. The entirety of education was a teacher writing on the black board and students writing things down. Never mind the copious amounts of time wasted on stuff that is basically just propaganda. I mean I could go on, but even now this pisses me off.

This is why my children will NEVER enroll in an National Indonesian school if I can help it, even if the international school the older one is enrolled in is at best average, and still cost something like 20x more than an Indonesian school.

My wife attended sekolah negeri as well as all her family members did and do to this day, but I personally have no experience of them. I will admit that from what I read and hear, or see on tv what image is formed in my head of them is not inconsistent with what you have said here.

My personal experience as a student in Indonesia was at international school (JES, which became not long after that JIS) and my experience as a teacher at "Nat Plus" (now SPK). What I can say is that although SPK is, I believe, still considered as a "national school", the learning environment and instruction are pretty much night and day from what you describe: that is, "obedience" is certainly not the priority, questioning, creativity, inquiry and independent / critical thinking are very much encouraged ... but yes,I do have the impression that this kind of learning / teaching atmosphere is quite different from the norm of "sekolah negeri", or at least the majority of them.