I want out...

[flavus]

Indonesians are similar to southerners in many respect, superficially polite but inwardly hostile to newcomers

This. I was chatting with someone who moved to South Carolina, and we remarked that it's remarkably similar to Indonesia in many ways - the bureaucracy and the outward politeness.

 

[Balifrog]

Well O.P., if your skin is so thin and sensitive I would recommend you stay in the great USA !
Your chances of being happy here with this mentality is close to nill !

Same for any other country .

Adios !

 

[pantaiema]

I know cases of officials at the European Commission, who are on a final salary pension of 70% of final salary (let's say the salary is EUR200k so the pension is 140k). They marry a young SE Asian lady, who will then be entitled to 60% of the pension after he dies (i.e. 84k), and they will be receiving that for the next 50+ years (or however long they live) from the European taxpayer. Now that's what I call development aid!

This is called Survivors' pensions and death grants. I think the rule has changed by now. It is no longer final salary pension but it will be based on the deceased person's earnings and the length of their service.

Count that how many of them are working in Brussels. It is a complete waste of Taxpayer's money.

FAQs|EU - Survivors' pensions and death grants: entitlement if living in another EU country -Your Europe - Your Europe

FAQs - Which country will pay death grants if you live in another EU country. Useful info on benefits for widows, widowers, or other survivors next-of-kin.

europa.eu

Survivors' pensions and death grants: entitlement if living in another EU country -Your Europe

Which country will pay death grants if you live in another EU country. Useful info on benefits for widows, widowers, or other survivors next-of-kin.

europa.eu

 

[harryopal1]

The world is awash with tourists and people moving to live in seemingly better countries and where these numbers accumulate you invariably get an ever growing sense of resentment. Residents of tourist destinations mostly seem to wish the tourists would come... leave their money and bugger off.

I guess basically there are too many people in the world and like the experimental rats pushed into confinement with too many other rats they become aggressive and hostile. Time to move to another planet.

 

[Balifrog]

The world is awash with tourists and people moving to live in seemingly better countries and where these numbers accumulate you invariably get an ever growing sense of resentment. Resid

Venitia, Barcelona, Amsterdam... 3 examples of cities setting regulations to limit the quantity of tourists.
The 2 first ones mainly again cruise ship visitors who come in hordes but bring little to the local economy.
AirBnB is also being pushed out of many places, as they make rental prices go up.

In the small seaside resort I lived in France the population went X 4 to X 5 during July / August.
Ok for 2 months, but I wouldn't have bear it in the long term.

 

[fastpitch17]

I have spoken to a few Balinese and have away with impression that it isn't just immigrants that have soured them. Bali started as a laid back island with bungalows and a genuine warming to it's guest. Then, the tourism craze took over with primarily the government seeing the financial windfall that could come from it. Hotels started popping up and locals were trained to work within them. Tourism service industries started popping up along with it's employees.

There definately was a financial windfall but besides the low wages the employees were getting, those finances went to the government or to the outside investors be they foreign or some wealthy group from outside Bali. Locals were not benefiting greatly but were appreciative that there was a rapid increase in employment. Some immigrant types arrived early but they were more the peace loving nomads and never tried to inflict their will or ways on others. They had little to no money so incorporated their lives to mirror the Balinese. As tourism grew other immigrants started coming and them whole families. These immigrants had cash and found residences nicer than most Balinese. They spent for constructions on their long term leased land. Once the house was built or rented they bought furniture and did their weekly shopping as grocery stores were also popping up. Very little money was actually going into the pockets of the average Balinese. It was going to a furniture seller or some corporation. The immigrants just kept coming as the Central Government kept advertising for them.

If one today tries to sit on a beach they will be approached by an onslaught of venders offering trinkets, massages, or chair rentals. Same for the mall and temple parking lots. These are not Balinese, these are Javanese. The Balinese feel very strongly about preserving their Hindu culture and way of life. This led to starting to dislike outsiders before the immigrants from foreign nation started finding Bali.

Balinese are Hindu and proud of their ways. Javanese are primarily Muslims. Balinese just didn't want them there. Problem is, they had little choice since they are all Indonesian and the Central Government leans heavily Islam. Some Mosque were built, more Javanese came. Balinese felt they hurt Bali simply because unlike Bali's reputation of friendliness, Javanese were more rude to people. The Javanese population grew, Islam grew. More Mosque and call to prayers. Balinese feel that the Muslim do not respect their customs and traditions but insist that the Balinese respect Islam. The Balinese will group up and stop any hardliner Muslim to enter Bali but are powerless for the rest.

Along came the tourist. A few from various races openly showed disrespect and this cast a negative light on all tourist. The thing was, they were only there a short time and while there they were spending money. Then, the ones who didn't leave. No longer spending money, thinking they are entitled, and basically acting like king shit.

So yeah, Balinese do not like imigrants be they foreign or domestic. They tollarate tourist simply because they have the cash that supports them. They went from the hospitable welcoming individuals to the desperate for the tourist cash people.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

I think the Balinese are much more worried about being taken over by Islam than they are by being taken over by some bogans on holiday. And rightly so. It is already happening. Not long until the mosque loudspeakers will be turned up to 115 decibels like they are in Jakarta. And then it's basically over.

 

[Jaime C]

Bali is nice, but so many tourists there that it can get a bit much.

A 7 day trip is really inadequate for a visit to Indonesia with the prospect of living there permanently. The flights are quite long and taxing. It takes me 3-5 days to recover from it.

My first visit 20 years ago as a tourist was for a month. I spent over 3 weeks in Bali, and about a week in Jakarta. I wasn’t looking to live there at all.

 

[snpark]

I'm the same. My first trip to Indonesia early 90's was 3 weeks only in Bali in February in Grand Bali Beach Hotel Sanur And did the tours to Ubud for painters village, silver making, batik, went diving for 2 days etc etc. Totally different

2nd trip 2007 Jakarta

Now kuta become seminyak. Seminak become canggu. Canggu become ubud etc etc
Now slowly lombok become Bali

Such a shame

Dubai was the same. Empty when I moved there in the early 90's
Now it's terrible. Yes all new and shiny but no soul or culture. The old days were the best

Anyway that's progress I guess

Just sad

 

[Helpful Herbert]

I'm pretty sure there were expats in Bali in the early 90s who were saying that it has really gone downhill since the golden days of the 70s.

 

[snpark]

Best to visit Ukraine or Russia or Sydney first. If you like that then you'll love Bali mate. Strewth

 

[MamangDudul]

Overall I get your wish to get out and live somewhere else, preferably some "island paradise". Well, I don't wanna keep you from it, we all gotta make our experiences.

Let me just tell you this, one week will never ever be enough to base such a a big decision on. It takes a lot more time to figure things out and get a feeling for everything. I mean, what can you possibly experience in one week? See all the cool tourist places in Bali and see people smiling at you for one week? It takes more time to figure things out. For example, even to figure out your whole legal situation and possibilities or non- possibilities will keep you busy for quite a while.

Indonesia/Bali can be a pretty wonderful place when you come here for the first time. After a while you will probably notice that all countries have their ugly sides and problems. That doesn't mean that it can't still turn out better than the life that you lead now. I mean who can possibly know? Again, it just takes more time, time to let the first butterflies go away and get a little glimpse at reality. Again, reality can still be pretty good, if you know what you are doing and if you know what you are "up against".

About the people here, it's basically the same. Of course their mentality and view towards life might be different from ours. And overall I feel like people are really more friendly here, even if in some ways it might be superficial. On the other side it's a also a lot more about money and personal advantage than you might feel at first. Overall people are always gonna be people, no matter where you go. I met good and bad people everywhere. Overall people have a more friendly attitude here and are more traditional in some sense, but I can't say which people on this planet are particularly better or worse than others when shit hits the fan.

Yeah, i get your enthusiasm but please take your time ans invest as much time in this idea of yours as you can before you act.

 

[Nimbus]

I have spoken to a few Balinese and have away with impression that it isn't just immigrants that have soured them. Bali started as a laid back island with bungalows and a genuine warming to it's guest. Then, the tourism craze took over with primarily the government seeing the financial windfall that could come from it. Hotels started popping up and locals were trained to work within them. Tourism service industries started popping up along with it's employees.

There definately was a financial windfall but besides the low wages the employees were getting, those finances went to the government or to the outside investors be they foreign or some wealthy group from outside Bali. Locals were not benefiting greatly but were appreciative that there was a rapid increase in employment. Some immigrant types arrived early but they were more the peace loving nomads and never tried to inflict their will or ways on others. They had little to no money so incorporated their lives to mirror the Balinese. As tourism grew other immigrants started coming and them whole families. These immigrants had cash and found residences nicer than most Balinese. They spent for constructions on their long term leased land. Once the house was built or rented they bought furniture and did their weekly shopping as grocery stores were also popping up. Very little money was actually going into the pockets of the average Balinese. It was going to a furniture seller or some corporation. The immigrants just kept coming as the Central Government kept advertising for them.

If one today tries to sit on a beach they will be approached by an onslaught of venders offering trinkets, massages, or chair rentals. Same for the mall and temple parking lots. These are not Balinese, these are Javanese. The Balinese feel very strongly about preserving their Hindu culture and way of life. This led to starting to dislike outsiders before the immigrants from foreign nation started finding Bali.

Balinese are Hindu and proud of their ways. Javanese are primarily Muslims. Balinese just didn't want them there. Problem is, they had little choice since they are all Indonesian and the Central Government leans heavily Islam. Some Mosque were built, more Javanese came. Balinese felt they hurt Bali simply because unlike Bali's reputation of friendliness, Javanese were more rude to people. The Javanese population grew, Islam grew. More Mosque and call to prayers. Balinese feel that the Muslim do not respect their customs and traditions but insist that the Balinese respect Islam. The Balinese will group up and stop any hardliner Muslim to enter Bali but are powerless for the rest.

Along came the tourist. A few from various races openly showed disrespect and this cast a negative light on all tourist. The thing was, they were only there a short time and while there they were spending money. Then, the ones who didn't leave. No longer spending money, thinking they are entitled, and basically acting like king shit.

So yeah, Balinese do not like imigrants be they foreign or domestic. They tollarate tourist simply because they have the cash that supports them. They went from the hospitable welcoming individuals to the desperate for the tourist cash people.

Even as far back as the 90s, Balinese like to say that there are no Balinese petty criminals, they are all Javanese and Madurese. There’s probably some truth to that, but I take it with a large grain of salt. Blaming immigrants for all the ills of society is a time honored tradition everywhere in the world.

When I was in middle school and high school, finding halal food in the island used to be an effort. Today it’s not a problem at all. Just this little thing may rub many Balinese the wrong way.

To be perfectly fair, I don’t think the average Balinese is more hostile toward immigrants than the average Batavian. It’s just that immigrating to Bali expecting smooth sailing and smiles at all times is quite naïve.

 

[Bob]

I have spoken to a few Balinese and have away with impression that it isn't just immigrants that have soured them. Bali started as a laid back island with bungalows and a genuine warming to it's guest. Then, the tourism craze took over with primarily the government seeing the financial windfall that could come from it. Hotels started popping up and locals were trained to work within them. Tourism service industries started popping up along with it's employees.

There definately was a financial windfall but besides the low wages the employees were getting, those finances went to the government or to the outside investors be they foreign or some wealthy group from outside Bali. Locals were not benefiting greatly but were appreciative that there was a rapid increase in employment. Some immigrant types arrived early but they were more the peace loving nomads and never tried to inflict their will or ways on others. They had little to no money so incorporated their lives to mirror the Balinese. As tourism grew other immigrants started coming and them whole families. These immigrants had cash and found residences nicer than most Balinese. They spent for constructions on their long term leased land. Once the house was built or rented they bought furniture and did their weekly shopping as grocery stores were also popping up. Very little money was actually going into the pockets of the average Balinese. It was going to a furniture seller or some corporation. The immigrants just kept coming as the Central Government kept advertising for them.

If one today tries to sit on a beach they will be approached by an onslaught of venders offering trinkets, massages, or chair rentals. Same for the mall and temple parking lots. These are not Balinese, these are Javanese. The Balinese feel very strongly about preserving their Hindu culture and way of life. This led to starting to dislike outsiders before the immigrants from foreign nation started finding Bali.

Balinese are Hindu and proud of their ways. Javanese are primarily Muslims. Balinese just didn't want them there. Problem is, they had little choice since they are all Indonesian and the Central Government leans heavily Islam. Some Mosque were built, more Javanese came. Balinese felt they hurt Bali simply because unlike Bali's reputation of friendliness, Javanese were more rude to people. The Javanese population grew, Islam grew. More Mosque and call to prayers. Balinese feel that the Muslim do not respect their customs and traditions but insist that the Balinese respect Islam. The Balinese will group up and stop any hardliner Muslim to enter Bali but are powerless for the rest.

Along came the tourist. A few from various races openly showed disrespect and this cast a negative light on all tourist. The thing was, they were only there a short time and while there they were spending money. Then, the ones who didn't leave. No longer spending money, thinking they are entitled, and basically acting like king shit.

So yeah, Balinese do not like imigrants be they foreign or domestic. They tollarate tourist simply because they have the cash that supports them. They went from the hospitable welcoming individuals to the desperate for the tourist cash people.

There's a lot in that narrative that's inaccurate and a lot of it sounds like what a Balinese taxi driver would tell a tourist. And the chronology is all mixed up.
I don't know about South Bali now but in the mid-80's to mid-90's all the sellers on the beaches were Balinese. When they saw a bule they dug in like ticks; it was impossible to be nice to most of them. A lot of locals then had the attitude that they would tolerate visitors for the money, but they'd rather not. A lot were genuinely welcoming too.
Which leads to manners. Balinese aren't more friendly or polite than Javanese. I've seen much worse behavior there in a few months than in years in other islands.
Plenty of Balinese have profited very handsomely from tourism. But the distribution of wealth is not very even, which was true before mass tourism too.
Locals there tend to blame all problems on outsiders, including problems which only locals caused. Every theft, trash pile, polluted river or beach, traffic jam, or hooker is the fault of outsiders, so they say.
Lastly there have been Muslim communities there for much longer than there's been mass tourism.
All the 'Balinese good, others bad' victimization is a load of BS.
That's not to say Bali wasn't a wonderful destination or should now be avoided. It still beats a lot of places.

 

[Samoerai]

Which leads to manners. Balinese aren't more friendly or polite than Javanese. I've seen much worse behavior there in a few months than in years in other islands.

Talking about "manners". Maybe I should post this in the thread of "Wonders and curiosities". I could be wrong, but what I noticed (at least in Jakarta) that most of the Indonesians are basically afraid of being looked upon as a "tukang".

This fear results in some bad / impolite behavior (at least in the eyes of Western people). E.g. in my apartment building there a some doors, to be opened with a key card, that will give access to other parts of the building (like another corridor, fitness room, swimming pool or mall). Indonesians opening a door, while knowing there is someone else behind them, they never hold the door for the other one. Let alone letting you pass first. I think this fear of seeing upon as a "tukang" (in this case holding the door) is one of the main drives for some behavior here in Indonesia. I could be wrong.

 

[Bob]

Talking about "manners". Maybe I should post this in the thread of "Wonders and curiosities". I could be wrong, but what I noticed (at least in Jakarta) that most of the Indonesians are basically afraid of being looked upon as a "tukang".

This fear results in some bad / impolite behavior (at least in the eyes of Western people). E.g. in my apartment building there a some doors, to be opened with a key card, that will give access to other parts of the building (like another corridor, fitness room, swimming pool or mall). Indonesians opening a door, while knowing there is someone else behind them, they never hold the door for the other one. Let alone letting you pass first. I think this fear of seeing upon as a "tukang" (in this case holding the door) is one of the main drives for some behavior here in Indonesia. I could be wrong.

I don't think it's fear of being seen as working / servant class. It's just not in the culture so much to do little niceties for random people. And it's not so frequent that such little niceties warrant thanks. The same goes in Singapore, Malaysia, and other parts of Asia.

 

[Samoerai]

I don't think it's fear of being seen as working / servant class. It's just not in the culture so much to do little niceties for random people. And it's not so frequent that such little niceties warrant thanks. The same goes in Singapore, Malaysia, and other parts of Asia.

Maybe, but how about this? I went a couple of times to the golf clubs here in Jakarta (Pondok Indah and Senayan). I went with a reasonable rich Indonesian man. When we arrived, I want to take my golf bag out of his car and carry it inside, but he stopped me. He refused to carry his golf bag and said that the "servant" (in this case girl) will carry our bags inside.

 

[Bob]

Maybe, but how about this? I went a couple of times to the golf clubs here in Jakarta (Pondok Indah and Senayan). I went with a reasonable rich Indonesian man. When we arrived, I want to take my golf bag out of his car and carry it inside, but he stopped me. He refused to carry his golf bag and said that the "servant" (in this case girl) will carry our bags inside.

Yes that type of behavior is common, and is all about status.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Maybe, but how about this? I went a couple of times to the golf clubs here in Jakarta (Pondok Indah and Senayan). I went with a reasonable rich Indonesian man. When we arrived, I want to take my golf bag out of his car and carry it inside, but he stopped me. He refused to carry his golf bag and said that the "servant" (in this case girl) will carry our bags inside.

That is because there is a system at the golf clubs here where your bag is taken down to the first Tee directly from the car, you're not allowed to take it into the clubhouse.

 

[centurion]

Talking about "manners". Maybe I should post this in the thread of "Wonders and curiosities". I could be wrong, but what I noticed (at least in Jakarta) that most of the Indonesians are basically afraid of being looked upon as a "tukang".

This fear results in some bad / impolite behavior (at least in the eyes of Western people). E.g. in my apartment building there a some doors, to be opened with a key card, that will give access to other parts of the building (like another corridor, fitness room, swimming pool or mall). Indonesians opening a door, while knowing there is someone else behind them, they never hold the door for the other one. Let alone letting you pass first. I think this fear of seeing upon as a "tukang" (in this case holding the door) is one of the main drives for some behavior here in Indonesia. I could be wrong.

Indonesia is one of the most classist societies I have ever seen. Upper class threats the lower class as a shit.

Did not notice this to such extent in Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, not to mention Vietnam or other countries. Maybe India is worse.