Here we go again: Indonesian parliament considers alcohol ban.

Excerpt from "Strategies to Reduce the Harmful Use of Alcohol" : Draft : 2009

"The level of regulation on the availability of alcohol will depend on local circumstances, including social, cultural and economic contexts as well as existing binding international obligations. In some low- and middle-income countries, informal markets are the main source of alcohol and formal controls on sale need to be complemented by actions addressing illicit or
informally produced alcohol. Furthermore, restrictions on availability that are too strict may promote the development of a parallel illicit market."


Admittedly, I only kinda skimmed the document (it's long and full of meaningless, non-actionable, buzzwords), but my take is that the WHO would not support an all-out ban as a first method of control. I realize you didn't say they would... But I was curious enough to see what methods of harm reduction they do encourage.

Most of what they have in there is community action and government support stuff, the sort of things that you would expect to see in a campaign for mental health care or poverty reduction. Perhaps that isn't surprising, as there are correlations between alcohol consumption and poverty/mental health issues.

For me, I'd take government soft action (education, healthcare, and even convoluted purchasing schemes like you see with marijuana clubs in Amsterdam) over government hard action (fines and prison sentences) any day of the week, on just about any social issue. I know that stuff is expensive, but alcohol can always be taxed.
There may be an illicit market increase because of taxes, but if a government is so poor at enforcing its laws that taxes cannot be implemented effectively, all the more reason said government should not be trusted to put people in jail over social issues. I want my government to be like my doctor, encourage good behavior and treat me when I need it, even quarantine me if I am a danger to others. I don't want someone to enforce best practices when I'm mostly just endangering myself.

The highlighted portion is important to me, too. A parallel illicit market would require there to have been a robust lawful market.

There isn't one.

To be clear, I don't think that Indonesia is in a place where it could enforce the "public health initiative against alcohol" of my dreams. We're never going to get a slow, gradual campaign to convince the public to give up alcohol not because of religious prohibition, but because of its tremendous societal cost. For a government to collect taxes on a drug used so irresponsibly, so frequently, as alcohol is a ethics cesspool.

Again, we cannot put a price tag on taking the alcohol out of date rapes or abusive fathers. Most of the world banned GHB due to its use in date rape (edit: and only as a synergist with... alcohol) despite its use as a bodybuilding supplement. The benefit was far outweighed by the harm. Alcohol, a factor in so much more violence, gets a free pass.

Why?
 
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In Indonesia when you impose bureaucratic hurdle on legal and quality-controlled alcoholic drinks to remove it from the shelves, you will get illegal and occasionally toxic moonshine in roadside stalls. Heck, you can find plenty of unlicensed alcohol production even today, and it will become the norm if you squeeze on legal alcohol.

Alcohol consumption in Indonesia is nowhere near as high as in USA. Making it scarce will create a ‘solution’ that’s worse than the problem.

Recently, the state of Oregon passed a law to decriminalize hard drugs. This mimics Portland's extant decriminalization of hard drugs.

Contrary to fantasy-based public policy, it has NOT decreased harm and has instead given government sanction to needle parks, "harm reduction" strategies, and a lax attitude towards homelessness. The police and authorities have abdicated responsibility, and the drug addicts have responded accordingly.

Do we need to jail people for their addictions? No. That's wrong headed. Do we need to prosecute those who harm the public by producing and distributing substances that create harm? Of course.

To be honest, I don't believe that an instant ban on alcohol will change much in Indonesia. That isn't my goal, and I don't believe it should be anyone's goal. My goal is, however, to acknowledge that innocent people are unduly harmed by the consumption of alcohol even if they don't drink. It's to get a public awareness, a level of societal education, to eschew alcohol.

It needs to remain a taboo.
 
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Alcohol is definitely taboo in most parts of Indonesia. It is not politically correct to say you like alcohol, even joking about it in public is not well received today. About half of adult women are wearing a hijab, they’re not exactly receptive to drinking in public.
 
Alcohol ban = me moving elsewhere.
As simple as that.

But I cant see this ban really passing....
 
So this has no connection with creeping Islamization and KSA brainwashing?
The bill was proposed by 18 members of PPP, 2 from PKS, and 1 from Gerindra. What’s your analysis on these numbers?
 
Alcohol is definitely taboo in most parts of Indonesia. It is not politically correct to say you like alcohol, even joking about it in public is not well received today. About half of adult women are wearing a hijab, they’re not exactly receptive to drinking in public.

You must have been out and away from Indonesia for too long, it's more like 80-90% of adult Muslim women now.
 
Who is "they"?
Sorry I was less than clear. You made reference to yourself in the US, my "they" was the US government.

That is the most well known case of alcohol prohibition I am aware of, are there any that have been actually successful? Just last week news came that the UAE is decriminalizing alcohol.

I agree with you that a prohibition would not be enforceable here, and should not be done as a moral crusade. As for a health campaign, start with rokok and gorengan and then maybe we should talk about alcohol.
 
You must have been out and away from Indonesia for too long, it's more like 80-90% of adult Muslim women now.
Depending on where you’re located obviously. I have no doubt the percentage is higher in some places.
 
The bill was proposed by 18 members of PPP, 2 from PKS, and 1 from Gerindra. What’s your analysis on these numbers?

My analysis says that concerned citizens want to impose sharia law through a backdoor, and some islamophobes on the forum are against it.

Also, when I drive around, big posters of the Noble Grand Imam are all around the city.
 
My analysis says that concerned citizens want to impose sharia law through a backdoor, and some islamophobes on the forum are against it.

Also, when I drive around, big posters of the Noble Grand Imam are all around the city.

Come on, you can do better than that.

It is a stand alone bill for alcoholic beverages, so it’s not a backdoor through the notoriously opaque omnibus law. They even insist on naming it “Alcoholic Beverages Prohibition” rather than “Alcoholic Beverages Regulation”. They want to advertise their intent.

PPP is the original Islamic party formed before I was born, early in Suharto’s New Order, before the Saudis were interested in spreading their ideology in Indonesia. Today it is also the smallest Islamic party in DPR. The 18 guys represent the whole party. Only 2 out of 50 members of PKS sign on, while nobody from PAN (44) nor PKB (48) is interested.

I’m not sure how billboards affect the lawmaking process in Indonesia, but I’m open to explanations.
 
Come on, you can do better than that.

It is a stand alone bill for alcoholic beverages, so it’s not a backdoor through the notoriously opaque omnibus law. They even insist on naming it “Alcoholic Beverages Prohibition” rather than “Alcoholic Beverages Regulation”. They want to advertise their intent.

PPP is the original Islamic party formed before I was born, early in Suharto’s New Order, before the Saudis were interested in spreading their ideology in Indonesia. Today it is also the smallest Islamic party in DPR. The 18 guys represent the whole party. Only 2 out of 50 members of PKS sign on, while nobody from PAN (44) nor PKB (48) is interested.

I’m not sure how billboards affect the lawmaking process in Indonesia, but I’m open to explanations.
Ok, I will take your "challenge".
Every time things like these happen, there will be a small victory for the Noble ones.

I.e. from last "ban alcohol campaign", Jakarta and surroundings banned sales of alcohol in retail stores. There was no law, bit restrictions tightened.

In the meantime, Law on the Elimination of Sexual Violence (RUU PKS), does not have a chance to pass in the Parliament nor will pass as it weakens the role of man in the traditional family, where he has right to beat his wife, under certain conditions.

Grand Imam's posters are just reminders that "we are watching you". It is good marketing, from the political marketing point of view btw.

I understand that this could be not enough strong arguments for you as you are living in a different environment. But if you say to your friends that you are from a country where gays, non-married couples, gamblers are flogged/whipped, blasphemy laws regularly enforced, they would tell you that you are lucky not living anymore in a country like that. Maybe you could be the winner of the Oppression Olympics in the US?
 
He seems to me to be on a similar trajectory to Trump. Narcissistic rabble rouser capable of communicating well with the poor and uneducated masses, using made up "facts" (eg Obama birthplace, Ahok blasphemy) and provocative statements to get headlines. Hopefully the Indonesian political system is more resilient, since he would need to be nominated and supported by several political parties. But nobody should take it for granted that he will just fade away. I think however his "base" is a lot smaller than Trump's, maybe 10% vs 35%, and muslims I have spoken to seem to detest him intensely.
 
@Helpful Herbert
Just to remind you that Ahok's blasphemy is a proven fact by the Indonesian judiciary system. Anybody who claims differently, risks penalties from the same Indonesian judiciary system.

I do not think Grand Imam has ambitions to be elected, as he only recognizes God. Once in power, he cannot be removed. And his influence is not just in his core base, but how many moderates he can swing to "conservatives". And these "conservatives" are by no mean same as conservatives in the US or Europe.
 
My analysis says that concerned citizens want to impose sharia law through a backdoor, and some islamophobes on the forum are against it.

Also, when I drive around, big posters of the Noble Grand Imam are all around the city.

Not agreeing with fundamentalists who want to push through extreme legislation hardly makes one an Islamophobe.

And as for the term " Noble ones." What makes them noble? While charges against cleric Muhammad Rizieq Shihab may have been dropped in his absence I find it hard to imagine that the charges including reference to pornography would have been put foward in the first place without some significant consideration. I have no doubt Muhammad Rizieq Shihab's followers see him as noble but I am not persuaded the rest of us have to accept that appellation. And in saying so I don't' think that makes me an Islamophobe.
 
Not agreeing with fundamentalists who want to push through extreme legislation hardly makes one an Islamophobe.

And as for the term " Noble ones." What makes them noble? While charges against cleric Muhammad Rizieq Shihab may have been dropped in his absence I find it hard to imagine that the charges including reference to pornography would have been put foward in the first place without some significant consideration. I have no doubt Muhammad Rizieq Shihab's followers see him as noble but I am not persuaded the rest of us have to accept that appellation. And in saying so I don't' think that makes me an Islamophobe.

You should spot irony and sarcasm in a discussion. :cool:
 

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