Dress Code

[Dave70]

Why's that? Hey look who liked your post. It's confirmed the attitude's in his head.

First of all, liking a comment doesn’t necessarily mean agreeing to the comment. Sometimes I leave a like on comments that are responding to my concerns. Nothing more, nothing less.

Regarding Balifrog’s comment (post #18), I admired his straight-forward, no-nonsense response to something we have in common. I will be uncomfortable too if a woman in niqab come to my house. Why? Because my house is inhabited by a pork-eating alcohol-drinking dog-owning non-Muslim family.

Let me tell you a story that happened long ago. We used to throw parties at home and we invited both Muslims (includes hijab-wearers) and non-Muslims. Of course, all food/drinks were halal. Then we heard through the grapevine that friends of friends were concerned that our pots & pans had been used to cook pork as well. That’s it, no more parties at home. My wife also stopped giving cakes & pies she bakes herself at home.

Nevertheless, the kindest person I have ever met in my life is a Muslim, right here in Indonesia. And the worst human I have ever met is a Christian. What a great irony because I am a Christian, but don’t count on me to convert to Islam, not in a thousand years. BTW, our most trustworthy employees are Muslims too.

Let me ask you Bob, do you ever have niqab-wearing women visiting your house?

 

[Balifrog]

What a great irony because I am a Christian, but don’t count on me to convert to Islam, not in a thousand years. BTW, our most trustworthy employees are Muslims too.

I was a workshop manager in BKK for years..
My most reliable staff was muslim from the South of Thailand.
The worst ? Issan region Northern region.
In construction a few decades ago we had a lot of Algerians. When we made a BBQ on site we always had 2 different. One without any pork.

 

[jstar]

And the worst human I have ever met is…

That hurt Dave.

 

[Bob]

Why's that ?
Simply we would have NOTHING in common and it would make me very unconfortable.
It would be same with any person extremist in any religion.
My Hindu companion wears a Gstring at the pool in our resort, now that's much nicer to look at....
Same for my ex (Thai) Gstring and topless at the beach.
To each his own, but I wouldn't go live in a Mormon community for example...

And your comment about who liked my post was not really nice !

That's of course your business and your prerogative. Personally I don't exclude people based on appearance, MLM logos and certain tattoos excepted. Getting to know someone doesn't mean we have to follow them, and we can learn from those with different perspectives, but that's just my view.
The comment was accurate. What's not nice is bigotry. It's an imperfect world, innit?

 

[Bob]

First of all, liking a comment doesn’t necessarily mean agreeing to the comment. Sometimes I leave a like on comments that are responding to my concerns. Nothing more, nothing less.

Regarding Balifrog’s comment (post #18), I admired his straight-forward, no-nonsense response to something we have in common. I will be uncomfortable too if a woman in niqab come to my house. Why? Because my house is inhabited by a pork-eating alcohol-drinking dog-owning non-Muslim family.

Let me tell you a story that happened long ago. We used to throw parties at home and we invited both Muslims (includes hijab-wearers) and non-Muslims. Of course, all food/drinks were halal. Then we heard through the grapevine that friends of friends were concerned that our pots & pans had been used to cook pork as well. That’s it, no more parties at home. My wife also stopped giving cakes & pies she bakes herself at home.

Nevertheless, the kindest person I have ever met in my life is a Muslim, right here in Indonesia. And the worst human I have ever met is a Christian. What a great irony because I am a Christian, but don’t count on me to convert to Islam, not in a thousand years. BTW, our most trustworthy employees are Muslims too.

Let me ask you Bob, do you ever have niqab-wearing women visiting your house?

As a matter of fact, yes. And people wearing crucifixes, Buddhist and Taoist amulets, stars of David, and bindis. Why do you ask?

 

[Balifrog]

Personally I don't exclude people based on appearance, MLM logos and certain tattoos excepted.

Ok, we have our differences.
My companion has plenty tattoos and I love it. And it are not "religious" tattoos.....
Funny enough, I don't have any.

 

[Dave70]

As a matter of fact, yes. And people wearing crucifixes, Buddhist and Taoist amulets, stars of David, and bindis. Why do you ask?

Okay, the niqab-wearing woman entering your house must have been accompanied by her husband or father, am I right? She's not supposed to visit someone alone, if there's male in the house. And she won't be shaking your hands. Or eat/drink other than bottled water.

 

[Hawk256]

Okay, the niqab-wearing woman entering your house must have been accompanied by her husband or father, am I right? She's not supposed to visit someone alone, if there's male in the house. And she won't be shaking your hands. Or eat/drink other than bottled water.

Assume all those things are true. What is the problem? Why does it bother you so much?

 

[Dave70]

Assume all those things are true. What is the problem? Why does it bother you so much?

Who says there's a problem? No niqab-wearing woman ever visited my house, only hijab-wearers, so what's the problem?

 

[Bob]

Okay, the niqab-wearing woman entering your house must have been accompanied by her husband or father, am I right? She's not supposed to visit someone alone, if there's male in the house. And she won't be shaking your hands. Or eat/drink other than bottled water.

She was with colleagues if it matters.
Why wouldn't she eat or drink other than bottled water? Not everyone from the West eats pork. People are individuals, think different thoughts, and wear what they wear from different motivations. You seem prone to stereotyping.

 

[Balifrog]

She was with colleagues if it matters.
Why wouldn't she eat or drink other than bottled water? Not everyone from the West eats pork. People are individuals, think different thoughts, and wear what they wear from different motivations. You seem prone to stereotyping.

I have worked / lived in Cairo, Saudi, Dubai, and Malaysia.
NEVER any staff wore the Niqab.
In my Missus village, 80% Muslim, I never saw any women dressed like that.

Bloody hell, the Covid mask masquerade was bad enough !

 

[Hawk256]

I have worked / lived in Cairo, Saudi, Dubai, and Malaysia.
NEVER any staff wore the Niqab.
In my Missus village, 80% Muslim, I never saw any women dressed like that.

Bloody hell, the Covid mask masquerade was bad enough !

I will say this and then bow out. My wife has plenty of friends and a sister in law that wear the Niqab. Their views are basically no different except my wife's choice not to veil. Other than wearing the Niqab they are no different. It's a singe choice out of many. Not sure how that squares your beliefs but it feels very much like stereotyping. We usually agree but seem far apart on this one.

 

[serious_fun]

Sorry to bump this thread, but I wanted to chime in with my initial thoughts:

The clothing is not the issue. The move towards a more extreme interpretation is the issue.

 

[Hawk256]

Sorry to bump this thread, but I wanted to chime in with my initial thoughts:

The clothing is not the issue. The move towards a more extreme interpretation is the issue.

And I said I would bow out but if you will read my last post you will see that wearing a veil does not necessarily mean you have extremist views. My wife and her veiled friends have the same views except for veiling. I assure you that my wife is not extreme and neither are her friends. So that argument doesn't hold water.

 

[Balifrog]

A more interesting would be why she suddenly, as a full grown adult decided to become more religiously zealous ?
She discovered "the truth" ?
She had a major personnal issue /problem or disappointment that made her turn to religion ?
Or she was pressured by husband, elder brother, or her environment ?

 

[Hawk256]

A more interesting would be why she suddenly, as a full grown adult decided to become more religiously zealous ?
She discovered "the truth" ?
She had a major personnal issue /problem or disappointment that made her turn to religion ?
Or she was pressured by husband, elder brother, or her environment ?

Not sure that the reason really matters. Especially not to someone else. Just accept that she did it and is not likely extreme. Do you explain your decisions to strangers? Or anyone for that matter? I kind of don't think so.

 

[snpark]

Most of the time it's something happened or they want. Like want to get married or get pregnant or just returned from Haj and feeling spiritual. I see lot of free spirited women in Jakarta suddenly start wearing hijab and they say it's because xyz reason. Then usually after it happens or doesn't they go back to the drinking and smoking gods

 

[Dave70]

From AI

While many Muslim-majority countries encourage or even mandate certain forms of modest dress, several have banned or restricted the hijab (headscarf) or niqab/burqa (face veil). These bans are typically driven by strict secularist policies, national security concerns, counter-extremism efforts, or the desire to preserve traditional national culture over "foreign" religious influences.

Here are the Muslim-majority countries that have banned or restricted these garments, along with their primary reasons:

### Recent and Current Bans on the Niqab or Burqa (Face Veil)

• Kazakhstan: Officially banned face-covering veils like the niqab and burqa in public spaces in July 2025 [[39]]. The government cited public safety and security, arguing that face-covering garments impede facial recognition and law enforcement [[32]]. President Kassym-Jomart Tokayev also described the niqab as an "archaic form of clothing imposed on Kazakh women by radicalised neophytes," framing it as a measure against extremism [[33]].
• Kyrgyzstan: Banned the niqab in public places in late 2024, imposing heavy fines for violators [[59]]. The legislation was justified as a crime prevention measure and a way to maintain the country's secular identity [[37]].
• Uzbekistan: Banned wearing burqas in public in 2023 [[65]]. While the country lifted a de facto ban on headscarves in schools in 2021, it only allowed a specific traditional neckerchief style called a ro'mol [[66]]. These measures are aimed at combating religious extremism and enforcing secular norms.
• Morocco: Banned the manufacturing, marketing, and sale of the niqab and burqa in 2017 [[25]]. The government linked the full-face veil to extremism and terrorism, fearing it could be used to hide identities or explosives [[26]]. Additionally, the Ministry of Education banned the niqab in schools because it "hinders communication" between teachers and students [[24]].

### Bans or Restrictions on the Hijab (Headscarf) in Public Institutions

• Tajikistan: Enacted a complete ban on the hijab in public spaces, schools, and government offices in June 2024 [[12]]. The government argues the hijab is not part of traditional Tajik culture but rather a "foreign" import [[13]]. The ban is heavily tied to the state's authoritarian secularism and efforts to curb foreign Islamic influence [[14]].
• Kosovo: Banned the hijab in public primary and secondary schools under a Ministry of Education ban on "religious uniforms." The Supreme Court recently upheld this ban in late 2025 [[22]]. The government maintains that public schools must remain neutral and free from religious symbols to ensure a unified, secular educational environment [[16]].
• Albania: Banned the hijab in public elementary and high schools [[40]]. Rooted in the country's history of strict state atheism and modern secularism, the government argues that public schools are secular spaces and prohibits religious symbols to prevent ideological indoctrination [[45]].
• Syria: Banned the niqab for students and teachers at public and private universities in 2010 [[54]]. The secular Ba'athist government implemented the ban to counter Islamic extremism and uphold Syria's identity as a secular, pluralistic state [[50]].
• Azerbaijan: Has heavily restricted the hijab in public schools, sometimes leading to the expulsion of female students [[48]]. The government strictly enforces secularism to prevent religious indoctrination in state institutions.

### Historical Context (Countries that previously had strict bans but have since lifted them)

• Turkey: For decades, Turkey strictly banned the hijab in universities, government buildings, and parliament [[27]]. This was rooted in Kemalist secularism (laïcité), which viewed the hijab as a symbol of political Islam that threatened the secular republic. These bans were gradually lifted between 2008 and 2013.
• Tunisia: Under Presidents Habib Bourguiba and Zine El Abidine Ben Ali (from the 1980s until the 2011 revolution), Tunisia banned the hijab in public institutions and schools via "Circular 108" [[29]]. Bourguiba famously called the hijab an "odious rag" and viewed it as a symbol of sectarianism and political extremism that threatened the modern, progressive Tunisian state [[27]]. The ban was officially lifted after the 2011 Arab Spring.

In almost all these cases, the bans are driven by the state's desire to enforce a specific vision of secularism, national identity, or security. Governments often frame the hijab or niqab as a "foreign," "radical," or "extremist" symbol that conflicts with the country's traditional culture or modern civic values.

 

[jstar]

Most of the time it's something happened or they want. …..I see lot of free spirited women in Jakarta suddenly start wearing hijab and they say it's because xyz reason.

Those things are also rather cyclical. Look at countries like Iran and Türkiye. And even those with an immigration background in Europe.

And Indonesia is amazingly sensitive for trends and fads. That can go from Labubu to K-Pop to religion. The moment influencers and presenters and other selebriti started wearing the hijab, the hordes followed. The latest fashion is some celebs have stopped wearing it btw.

With the niqab you have a select group that is very ‘westernized’. And with that tongue in cheek remark I mean Arab focused. A strong sub-current in Indonesian society with people who often see themselves superior. Add to that a certain gengsi (look at me how modest and pure I am not wanting to participate in shallow superficial trends) and peer pressure…