Boston Globe: Saudi Arabia is destabilizing the world.

[dafluff]

Boston Globe columnist Stephen Kinzer writes an article that should come to no surprise to anyone here.

To be sure there is some push back from traditional Muslim organizations in Indonesia, and it has been more vocal recently. However they have been in large parts ineffective as they are denounced as "not real Islam", and have trouble fighting back against the almost unlimited money and propaganda pouring in from the Middle East. Not to mention that the literal, nuance free interpretation of Islam by Wahhabism is hard to refute for the average Muslim.

Saudi Arabia has been working for decades to pull Indonesia away from moderate Islam and toward the austere Wahhabi form that is state religion in Saudi Arabia. The Saudis’ campaign has been patient, multi-faceted, and lavishly financed. It mirrors others they have waged in Muslim countries across Asia and Africa.

The center of Saudi Arabia’s campaign to convert Indonesians to Wahhabi Islam is a tuition-free university in Jakarta known by the acronym LIPIA. All instruction is in Arabic, given mainly by preachers from Saudi Arabia and nearby countries. Genders are kept apart; strict dress codes are enforced; and music, television, and “loud laughter” are forbidden. Students learn an ultra-conservative form of Islam that favors hand amputation for thieves, stoning for adulterers, and death for gays and blasphemers.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion...izing-world/ivMeb7TWGk1fQaVjZWWKGP/story.html

 

[mauricio]

Yes, Saudi Arabia is quietly spreading its brand of Puritanical Islam in Indonesia https://www.voanews.com/a/saudi-ara...-puritanical-islam-in-indonesia-/3679287.html

 

[fastpitch17]

People have been pointing this out for years but most Indonesians arejust too damn mind lazy to listen.

 

[Anglian]

People have been pointing this out for years but most Indonesians arejust too damn mind lazy to listen.

I think the motivation is money, lots of it, buying off politicians, building mosques, I wonder how much the FPI get, probably not directly but through the FPI sponsors, I'm told but not seen it anywhere written, but the beloved leader of the FPI has been given a one year stay visa, who could be paying I wonder

 

[vocalneal]

Saudi Arabia is destabilizing the world.

If this is in fact the case which it may well be. It is because the price of oil is low and Saudi cannot survive at it previous level of income and world influence. Iran has lots of oil, Yemen has lots of oil as yet untapped.

The Qatari thing is also motivated by money. Qatar exports gas. The price of which probably hasn't changed as much.

It is just a political foil which the west wishes to cloak with religion.

Anyone who hasn't watched the movie Lawrence of Arabia, should. Especially the occupation of of Damascus scene.
here. The whole movie is good. A movie classic even if one is not interested in Arabs.

 

[R Cameron]

I saw a mosque in a rural area that said quite clearly on a sign out front that it was funded by the Saudi kingdom, is that common?

 

[Anglian]

Saudis get very upset if you mention lawrence

 

[Asun]

Saudis get very upset if you mention lawrence

What if you mention about the Mongols? Do they still remember the sack of Baghdad?

 

[fastpitch17]

I think the motivation is money, lots of it, buying off politicians, building mosques, I wonder how much the FPI get, probably not directly but through the FPI sponsors, I'm told but not seen it anywhere written, but the beloved leader of the FPI has been given a one year stay visa, who could be paying I wonder

Of course it's money for the anti constitution people. The thing is, they were already in this state of mind when their contributors chose them to advance the movement. This is why I mentioned Indonesian Citizens. The politicians and groups like the FPI have made the most noise while the citizenship basically stays home and pouts to themselves and maybe a family member or friend. They don't understand that the only real way to combat the thugs is to be louder then they are. To stand and be heard. They say they are afraid when I have directly asked why to people. Another thing they don't understand, is if they are louder they probably have nothing to fear.

The Police are no help in any of this. Pornography charge is all that's being pursued while there are much more serious accusations on the table. The Red Notice from Interpol has been turned down and now they are going to discuss what they may be able to do. First, maybe a notice to actually find him. Maybe discuss with their Saudi counterparts. They just don't know. Maybe if they started demanding some information and help they could get things done. Maybe if they brought real charges against Rezieq a red notice would be approved. Pornography is not going to do it and truth be told, not too many people really care if there is a pornography charge. Stick some real charges on his in stead of dragging their feet may get something done. These other accusations have been out there longer then this pornography charge. Why no action? People should be asking. They need to be heard and the only way that happens is to be loud about what they want.

Visa? It has been my understanding that there is no one year or open visa in Saudi Arabia. If he has been given any special interest then the Indonesian government needs to get loud. The Saudi King only pledged a billion to Indonesia before running off to Malaysia to give them 25 billion. His Indonesian contribution is for education. In all likelihood for his schools.

All I have seen so far is brain dead police who either don't have a clue to what they are doing or are acting stupid purposely. Either way is very dangerous for Indonesia. Add the lazy ass citizens and their practice of being mute until it's too late, you get the recipe for disaster. That is what this entire nation will be, a disaster. A lot of it because Indonesia let the hardliners do the bidding for the Saudi style of religion and how it governs.

 

[Anglian]

What if you mention about the Mongols? Do they still remember the sack of Baghdad?

I doubt if they know who the mongols are as Baghdad is in Iraq, we never discussed, they did give Idi Amin shelter after he was deposed, and he ate people, so our FPI friend would have no problem in asking for asylum

 

[Dan]

I saw a mosque in a rural area that said quite clearly on a sign out front that it was funded by the Saudi kingdom, is that common?

The number of masajid funded by Saudi Arabia is very minor, numbering in the hundreds in a nation of many thousands of masajid. I would dare to say that 1% or less are funded by the kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

With this in mind, why is there so much emphasis here on the "Protocols of the Elders of Saudi Arabia?"

I think it's accurate to say that Saudi Arabia, like many other nations, engages in diplomatic "soft power." Most of that is through is its funding of schools. My country does it through Voice of America (interestingly, someone linked to them above and VOA is unabashedly a propaganda outlet) and scholarships (my own wife was a recipient). It is unlikely you will find articles about the insidious influence of the United States on Indonesia in anything other than an Islamist rag.

Contrary to popular belief, the indigenous expression of Islam is very conservative. From the article,

"This episode is especially alarming because Indonesia, the world’s largest Muslim country, has long been one of its most tolerant. Indonesian Islam, like most belief systems on that vast archipelago, is syncretic, gentle, and open-minded. The stunning fall of Jakarta’s governor reflects the opposite: intolerance, sectarian hatred, and contempt for democracy. Fundamentalism is surging in Indonesia. This did not happen naturally."

"Indonesian Islam" is Sunni Islam of the Shafi'i school of jurisprudence, the same "kind" of Islam as found in Yemen and Somalia, two places nobody associates with moderate anything. The reason why Indonesians have had greater syncretism is distance, and with the world getting 'smaller' they are learning more about what it means to adhere to this school. I don't honestly think it has to do with a Saudi Arabian plot to make Muslims more religious; Muslims are doing that on their own in a period of Islamic revivalism spurred both as a reaction to liberal values and the spread of information technology.

 

[dafluff]

@Dan Welcome back!

 

[Dan]

@Dan Welcome back!

Thanks! I've been away, though I still lurk from time to time.

 

[Anglian]

Welcome back Dan, good to read your input, a couple of points, I wouldn't underestimate 1%, they can have a big impact on all the other 99% if they have a mind to it, other religions have started with less. So far I believe nobody here has put their hand up to receiving Saudi money, in Malaysia the prime minister was found with $681 million in his account, when he was discovered he returned most, less about $40 million or so, a present from the Saudi king, he is not know for his generosity, so why he gave it is not known so far.

The very large beautiful mosque in KL was built with Saudi money on the understanding that Malaysia would ban alcohol, they never did

I had many young Saudi friends and workmates, very outgoing as young people are, they were terribly restricted by the religious police and wished they could get rid of them, all were very religious but wanted to be like young people in other countries , they were very restricted, even the king is somewhat under the thumb of the religious leaders, they make Aceh look very pathetic in their enforcing their version of sharia law

 

[Dan]

Welcome back Dan, good to read your input, a couple of points, I wouldn't underestimate 1%, they can have a big impact on all the other 99% if they have a mind to it, other religions have started with less, so far I believe nob

I do not doubt that there has been a major shift in Indonesian attitudes on Islam. However, I don't see much evidence that this is coming from Saudi Arabia. The hypothesis is "Saudi Arabia has a very conservative strain of Islam, therefore the change comes from there."

But my problem with this as a Muslim is that I don't see much evidence that the Hanbali or Salafi points of view are radically different from the dominant school of jurisprudence in Indonesia. I sincerely doubt that Stephen Kinzer can demonstrate a difference, and precisely 0% of his article went into explaining "Indonesian Islam" other than the usual solemnly held truths about it.

You and others that have lived in Indonesia for a long time have noticed a change. I do not dispute that Indonesian Muslims are becoming more conservative in their approach. My argument is that there are more logical reasons for this that don't rely on flirting with conspiracy theory. Indonesian organizations and even some ulema will claim it is the nefarious influence of Saudi Arabia because, to them, it exonerates Islam from the blame. At the same time, they are advocating for penalties for apostates and blasphemers not because of the influence of Wahab or Ibn Taymiyyah, but because Imam Shafi'i (and indeed all of the most important medieval jurists) have argued that apostasy and blasphemy are major crimes in Islam.

 

[fastpitch17]

Well Dan, it may become that your Aceh become the liberal spot in Indonesia except that I'm sure the Batak and a few others will have something to say or do about it.

The thing is, this radical change in Indonesia is being driven by Saudi like practices with the likes of the for one, FPI. Rizieq is a follower of it and he himself has many followers. While it's true that many of his sympathizers haven't a clue to what is really going on, his close member/followers certainly do. There are also politicians that support him right now but I think that is only because by supporting them, they can get them to do some of their bidding without showing their faces. Right now, organizations like the FPI are running the show. Doing pretty much as they please. This pornography charge is the polices downfall because many just don't care about something like that and as far as his followers, they believe it is all a set up which it may well be trying to embarrass him and drive his followers away. The police and government are showing their fear of these organizations by not pursuing the other, more serious accusations against him.

Rizieq was trained in Saudi. He strongly believes as well as many others that their way of Sharia is the right and proper way. Of course it helps to have a leadership role where your personal life is protected from being reported on. Saudi when visiting here pledged 1 billion dollars for Indonesia. This is supposed to go towards education. Which education do you think it will be headed? There are Saudi sponsored Mosque, Boarding schools, and Universities. I am willing to make a wager they do not teach the Indonesian curriculum. I know the Universities definitely do not and some get to go on to Saudi to study after at no cost. I have heard that coming out of a Saudi school the the student is fully indoctrinated into Wahhabi. Then they return to Indonesia.

The Saudi influence is growing from inside and outside Indonesia. There have been plans reported to overthrow the government. Not by force but by occupation of the palace and legislature building with legislature personnel helping. Of course, it has also been reported that then the military will take over and that will probably put the Islamist out on their ear used and abused. What could that lead to? Either way, the constitution is out the window.

People are legitimately concerned about what is going on in Jakarta right now. Not just expats but Indonesians. Many are scared and many more fear saying anything. That does not build harmony. It certainly won't build tolerance. Just the opposite is going to happen.

 

[fastpitch17]

but because Imam Shafi'i (and indeed all of the most important medieval jurists) have argued that apostasy and blasphemy are major crimes in Islam.

Right, in Islam so it should apply to Muslims but in a nation that says it is secular, there should be no place for it in the laws of the land. If Muslims want to punish Muslims for it, that is their twisted business. Not non Muslims.

Rizieq is acting like he is the new prophet, why can't people see and react to that? He is above all and dictates how things should be.

 

[Davita]

......and the US Senate has just passed a bill to authorize US$500M sales of munitions to Saudi....

"On Capitol Hill, the Senate has voted 53 to 47 to approve the sale of $500 million in precision-guided munitions to Saudi Arabia. A surprising number of senators voted against the deal, amid increasing concerns about the U.S.-backed, Saudi-led war in Yemen, which has killed more than 10,000 people and included devastating attacks on civilians that human rights groups say may constitute war crimes."

Trump will B/S about getting jobs back but I hope those in the US armaments export business know they are working so many will die. Yet America has a war on drugs because drugs kill...what hypocrisy.

 

[Anglian]

I'm afraid Saudis consider Yemenis lesser beings, when I worked for Saudia, a Yemeni attempted to high jack a Saudia 1011, I was seeing the aircraft in lots of police turned up, it transpired the poor little Yemeni was overpowered, as the aircraft came to a stop the door opened and the Yemeni dropped out, no stairs, the milatary scooped him up never to be seen or heard of again, the reason I got from the flight crew at the reason for the attempted hi jack was the little Gemini wanted to bring to attention the ill treatment of Yemenis in Saudi

I don't understand why we should be so keen for us to arm the Saudis, they don't like us, the little kids are taught to hate Non believers, walk through a poorer part of Riyadh and the kids will throw stones at you also shouting abuse, I go along with Fastpitchs interpretation, no definite proof as yet of vast Saudi money being paid to politicians, but there finger is in the pie somewhere, people are becoming more religious but still in a more moderate way so far.