Back as an upper-middle income country, but will Indonesia be trapped there?

[flavus]

Raise the moral / personal ethic issue.
If you are a real, practising believer in any religion would you forfait / abandon that religion just to marry ?
What is more important for you (you in a global sense) ?

Personally, even I am not a "practising" Christian (meaning I am not going to church or reading the Bible) i would never change my religion.
And sure not for "administrative" reasons.

And "forcing" the other party to change is definitively not fair.

Just my personal opinion.

Disclaimer : Been married 15 y with a Thai, religion not an issue.
Am living together with an Indo Hindu since 8 y, married is not planned (age related), but even without the age thing it would be a nono.
I am not going to change religion, and neither would she.

Yeah. Also wrt this silliness... since the Constitutional Court said a few years ago you can leave the religious affiliation field blank on your KTP

Can blanks marry anyone? Or only other blanks? Under what religious ceremony since the freaking catatan sipil insists on a religious wedding first?

I would consider blank as a compromise - basically my religion is none of the state's beeswax

 

[Samoerai]

basically my religion is none of the state's beeswax

you can leave the religious affiliation field blank on your KTP

Yes, that's one of the thing I found strange here .. why put 'one's religion' on a KTP? What's next then ...?

 

[Helpful Herbert]

If they put religion on the KTP, they should also put which football team you support (must choose one), and you should also state whose side you are on in the Russia Ukraine war. People who support Russia are not allowed to marry people who support Ukraine.

 

[Balifrog]

Yeah. Also wrt this silliness... since the Constitutional Court said a few years ago you can leave the religious affiliation field blank on your KTP

Can blanks marry anyone? Or only other blanks? Under what religious ceremony since the freaking catatan sipil insists on a religious wedding first?

I would consider blank as a compromise - basically my religion is none of the state's beeswax

My KTP mentions :
Agama : OTHERS

TBH, took me this thread to look at it.

 

[Samoerai]

My KTP mentions :
Agama : OTHERS

TBH, took me this thread to look at it.

I also just checked my KITAP and KTP ... and I noticed that my KITAP don't have my signature in the right corner, yet my KTP has my signature. Is my KITAP valid? Just got it.

 

[flavus]

My KTP mentions :
Agama : OTHERS

TBH, took me this thread to look at it.

I wonder if that's only an option for KTP-OA? For normal KTP it took decades before they decide to even allow '-' (supposedly for those followers of local traditions, but who's to say who can use it). And 'Confucianism' (I know, it's not really a religion is it) was only added back after Soeharto fell

 

[Nimbus]

Yes, that's one of the thing I found strange here .. why put 'one's religion' on a KTP? What's next then ...?

It has a practical application in Indonesia, because the country has a separate civil legal system and court for Muslims. If you’re a Muslim, then your marriage, divorce, and inheritance must be settled through the (Islamic) Religious Court. Otherwise you go through the ordinary court.

 

[Samoerai]

It has a practical application in Indonesia, because the country has a separate civil legal system and court for Muslims. If you’re a Muslim, then your marriage, divorce, and inheritance must be settled through the (Islamic) Religious Court. Otherwise you go through the ordinary court.

I see. I now understand more the contents of other threads regarding e.g. inheritances
Complicated society rules here. So, if a Muslim couple doesn't agree with a tax bill, the couple can go to Religious Court to challenge the tax bill, where the Court maybe will use different rules than the Tax Authority? Interesting.

 

[Bob]

It has a practical application in Indonesia, because the country has a separate civil legal system and court for Muslims. If you’re a Muslim, then your marriage, divorce, and inheritance must be settled through the (Islamic) Religious Court. Otherwise you go through the ordinary court.

Same in Singapore and Malaysia.

 

[Bob]

I see. I now understand more the contents of other threads regarding e.g. inheritances
Complicated society rules here. So, if a Muslim couple doesn't agree with a tax bill, the couple can go to Religious Court to challenge the tax bill, where the Court maybe will use different rules than the Tax Authority? Interesting.

Where did you gather that about taxes?

 

[serious_fun]

I see. I now understand more the contents of other threads regarding e.g. inheritances
Complicated society rules here. So, if a Muslim couple doesn't agree with a tax bill, the couple can go to Religious Court to challenge the tax bill, where the Court maybe will use different rules than the Tax Authority? Interesting.

My religion is opposed to paying tax.

I have yet to find a court that rules in my favour.

 

[centurion]

It has a practical application in Indonesia, because the country has a separate civil legal system and court for Muslims. If you’re a Muslim, then your marriage, divorce, and inheritance must be settled through the (Islamic) Religious Court. Otherwise you go through the ordinary court.

In reality, if you are playing too much and engage in libertarian individualistic attitude putting "others" and empty fields in KTP, in some cases if your Indonesian spouse passes away or gets divorced from you, you will get zero from her/his assets.

 

[Samoerai]

Where did you gather that about taxes?

Just a question .. if there are separate courts with different laws ... then logically there might be different outcomes .. on e.g. the case that a gift (read: house) from husband to the wife is taxed (35% income tax) by Tax Authority ... then maybe in Islam Court it could be ruled differently?

 

[Bob]

Just a question .. if there are separate courts with different laws ... then logically there might be different outcomes .. on e.g. the case that a gift (read: house) from husband to the wife is taxed (35% income tax) by Tax Authority ... then maybe in Islam Court it could be ruled differently?

It would be specified what issues would be handled by religious courts and in what circumstances. There should be no dual jurisdiction.

 

[flavus]

It has a practical application in Indonesia, because the country has a separate civil legal system and court for Muslims. If you’re a Muslim, then your marriage, divorce, and inheritance must be settled through the (Islamic) Religious Court. Otherwise you go through the ordinary court.

And per the other thread about interfaith marriages - even as non Muslims you are required to have a religious marriage ceremony first to get your marriage license (or get married abroad but there's increasing resistance to registering it if your KTPs don't match)

 

[flavus]

My religion is opposed to paying tax.

I have yet to find a court that rules in my favour.

Some people in Hawaii have been trying this, not on the grounds of religion but on the basis that Hawaii was illegally annexed by the US.

The latter is arguably true, but the cases seem hopeless (but amusing)

Collecting Taxes Might Just Be a ‘War Crime’ in Hawaii

They say they don’t owe the state of Hawaii any money—because Hawaii is still a kingdom and doesn’t fall under the jurisdiction of the IRS.

www.thedailybeast.com

 

[Nimbus]

I see. I now understand more the contents of other threads regarding e.g. inheritances
Complicated society rules here. So, if a Muslim couple doesn't agree with a tax bill, the couple can go to Religious Court to challenge the tax bill, where the Court maybe will use different rules than the Tax Authority? Interesting.

Tax is not a religious matter, so it’s handled by the criminal court.

 

[Samoerai]

Tax is not a religious matter, so it’s handled by the criminal court.

I was thinking out loud. Perhaps it is an opening to escape from 'the pitfall' created by the 1960 Agricultural Act, which prohibits foreigners (WNA) from owning a house or land. A WNA (married to a WNI) is forced to arrange a prenup or postnup when he wants to buy a house in Indonesia, separating property between husband and wife. This in turn has an income tax effect, when the WNA buys a house and puts it in the name of the WNI. The tax authority considers the house as a gift from the WNA to the WNI, as if it were a gift between two strangers. Well, this has been discussed many times in this forum.

Could the Religious Court not rule on this? Specially when it concerns muslim man and wife. It is reasonable and fair to assume that buying a house for your muslim wife (and children) is not a gift in the sense described in the tax law.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

This in turn has an income tax effect, when the WNA buys a house and puts it in the name of the WNI. The tax authority considers the house as a gift from the WNA to the WNI, as if it were a gift between two strangers.

Has anyone ever had to pay tax on a "gift" from husband to wife in Indonesia. Has there ever been a case that anyone has heard of?
Or is it one of those things like people on a spouse Kitap working that people spend a long time discussing but no-one has heard of anyone being prosecuted for?

 

[Nimbus]

I was thinking out loud. Perhaps it is an opening to escape from 'the pitfall' created by the 1960 Agricultural Act, which prohibits foreigners (WNA) from owning a house or land. A WNA (married to a WNI) is forced to arrange a prenup or postnup when he wants to buy a house in Indonesia, separating property between husband and wife. This in turn has an income tax effect, when the WNA buys a house and puts it in the name of the WNI. The tax authority considers the house as a gift from the WNA to the WNI, as if it were a gift between two strangers. Well, this has been discussed many times in this forum.

Could the Religious Court not rule on this? Specially when it concerns muslim man and wife. It is reasonable and fair to assume that buying a house for your muslim wife (and children) is not a gift in the sense described in the tax law.

The religious court handles the officiating of marriage, divorce proceedings, and division of inheritance between heirs of the estate. They don’t have jurisdiction beyond those areas.