Another Blasphemy Charge

Prabowo is supported by the Chinese businessman, more than Jokowi, so I would not worry too much for them.

Opportunities for young educated people are better in Indonesia than abroad. A good finance degree is more valuable in Jakarta than in Singapore or NY, where the competition is stiff, and as they say: in the land of blind the one-eyed is king.

A lot of foreign-educated Indonesians are coming back after studies, here are their families and there are job opportunities. If you have any proven data about net positive brain drain, it would be useful to present.

If Indonesia continues the education policy with 6 days a week study + lot of religion classes, young Chinese Indonesians will be still superior to natives. As there is some catch-up, it is very slow, due to the above reasons.
 
Prabowo is supported by the Chinese businessman, more than Jokowi, so I would not worry too much for them.

I think you are rather misinformed. Just see what happened with Perindo (Hary Tanoe) and where the loyalties are now. Of course his role in ‘98, in KOPASSUS, and the infamous quotes of what he would do with the Catholic Chinese “drive them back into the sea” did not really help Prabowo.

Opportunities for young educated people are better in Indonesia than abroad. A good finance degree is more valuable in Jakarta than in Singapore or NY, where the competition is stiff, and as they say: in the land of blind the one-eyed is king.

Do you know how much a fresh graduate makes at Deloitte or E&Y in Jakarta compared to in the EU or USA? It is a joke. And what about career opportunities in foreign companies; here you clearly see there are artificial plafonds if you’re not Japanese or Korean. (Luckily some offer traineeships at HQ for 1 year.)

A lot of foreign-educated Indonesians are coming back after studies, here are their families and there are job opportunities. If you have any proven data about net positive brain drain, it would be useful to present.

Where are the job opportunities? They have only been groomed for the family business. And perhaps get the opportunity for a start-up. (IT or horeca.) And it’s still extremely difficult for a Chinese Indonesian to get a high rank at police or army.

Btw, there are numbers available on the Chinese (PRC) students ( 海归 ) who have returned home after having studied abroad. Only six years ago the amount of those that stayed abroad was over 90%! Now that is changing, because of governmental incentives, rapid growth and opportunities and -important- the perceived bamboo ceiling abroad. And what is the Indonesian government doing? A medical doctor who studied abroad has to be an intern for years before being able to practice.

NB: I guess you know Habibie. See what he had to say about it in a speech in 2011:
“From the time I was in Europe, the issue is still the same: brain drain. But let’s get realistic. Why would these smart people (Indonesian students studying abroad) choose to come back to Indonesia where there is no available job for them?”
 
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This can be an interesting discussion.

I do not think about Hary Tanoe, but about others, Nine Dragons, Tommy Winata etc. that were against Ahok. Prabowo brother is Christian, and Prabowo himself is a half-Chinese.

Indeed, fresh graduate makes more in the USA, but living costs are higher in the USA, and competition in the USA is tough, and in Indonesia is not. Also being an Indonesian expat is not easy, coz Indonesians usually want to be near their families. That is why there are no significant Indonesian asylum seekers or economic immigrants from Indonesia to Australia.

There are almost no plafonds in foreign companies if you have brains, except for top management/ director`s positions, problem is that people with brains are hard to find or they already work. Most successful foreign companies put a lot on attracting quality local workers, and managers (i.e. Unilever, Heineken, working almost 100 years here).

Everywhere where you need an HQ person you can find a Chinese guy. They are not only running the family car wash, and even when doing that, is making a lot of money. And why would anybody with brains want to be in the police or army?

I think PRC has different methods of convincing people to come back besides good opportunities, being a totalitarian dictatorship.

Fresh medical doctors studying abroad in other countries have to go through an internship when they come back as well, it is not an Indonesian invention. The process, so-called adaptation, is 1-2 years, and it is not unusual in other countries.
At the end of the day, why would somebody`s experience be taken at a face value without check?

In USA, Canada, some western countries usually they will ask to go to additional education and pass exams and that lasts 1-3 years if your University was not on the approved list.
 
This can be an interesting discussion.

I do not think about Hary Tanoe, but about others, Nine Dragons, Tommy Winata etc. that were against Ahok. Prabowo brother is Christian, and Prabowo himself is a half-Chinese

It is just business eg. do you want to pay 2% to get project done or 15% with some money going to help Jakarta. Well we better get together to stop this guy.....he is making business more costly and difficult. It does not matter race, or religion, it is money or shall I say good business practices for some.
 
Does not look that Chinese Indonesian will emigrate anytime soon, except in case of a serious pogrom, because of several reasons:

Maybe the rich and powerful Chinese indonesians. What about the lower to middle class income? Remember 1998? Those who lost their businesses, lives, and family members are the ones thinking of leaving. Some already have.
 
I said "except in case of a serious pogrom", and 1998 looked like a start of a pogrom, so people flew away. However, why do you think Prabowo would make or trigger a pogrom or expulsion of Chinese? He is just a power-hungry Machiavellian, supported also by some Chinese big-business and has probably some silent support of US companies.

At the end of the day, somebody has to work and run the business. If somebody "eliminates" the Chinese boss/business owner, who will pay the salary?

Suharto also wanted to eliminate the Chinese but he understood that he could not rebuild the economy without them, so the cohabitation continued.
 
@jstar Abdullrahman wahid a.k.a Gus Dur is Chinese, he is 6th R.I. president,
https://id.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daftar_tokoh_Tionghoa-Indonesia
I think there many TNI-Polri PaTi too from Chinese decendant.
Sorry my English.

Your English is good, no problem.

But the Gus Dur example you give does NOT prove anything, on the contrary; he came from a line of high positioned Islamic scholars, even Kyai. And even if they came from current day China generations ago, they were already Muslim. That family had an astonishing pious image.

The thing is that Chinese are often presumed to be kafir and when they’re unlucky, also (potential) communists.
 
Your English is good, no problem.

But the Gus Dur example you give does NOT prove anything, on the contrary; he came from a line of high positioned Islamic scholars, even Kyai. And even if they came from current day China generations ago, they were already Muslim. That family had an astonishing pious image.

The thing is that Chinese are often presumed to be kafir and when they’re unlucky, also (potential) communists.
First off all i am so sorry for all injustice happen to Chinese people in this country, no one deserves being threated badly.
Second, Gus Dur is Muslim, but still Chinese ur post #42 talking about Chinese as race, right? Not Chinese + (whatever theirs religion is)
I think my post is prove something. Who you think will become President RI if the candidate is:
1. Javanese (non-I)
2. Chinese (I)
End, this country is not good (bad maybe?or worst?) but this country not some kind neo apartheid country, (by country i mean its constitution).
==edit==
Jkw is being accused commie too.
 
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Serious question: Has a blasphemy charge brought in Indonesia ever resulted in an acquittal? It really appears that the courts simply go through the motions and then rubber-stamp whatever the prosecutor says (possibly lengthening the requested sentence in order to appear "pious") every time there is a blasphemy charge. Btw, I mean cases that made it all the way to a trial in front of judges; not cases where the charge may have been threatened but then withdrawn.
 
Serious question: Has a blasphemy charge brought in Indonesia ever resulted in an acquittal?

I would be very interested to know this, as well as more specifically if any blasphemy charge has been acquitted where the accused blasphemed the majority religion of that area.
 
Serious question: Has a blasphemy charge brought in Indonesia ever resulted in an acquittal?
I would be very interested to know this, as well as more specifically if any blasphemy charge has been acquitted where the accused blasphemed the majority religion of that area.
Acquittal(s) have occurred where a tersangka have been charged with the blasphemy law. I am aware of at least one which made a bit of noise in christian circles. It's the case of Pendetta Heidi Eugenie in the early 2010's in Bandung. She was prosecuted for blasphemy against the Christian religion and prosecutors were requesting a two years sentence. She got acquitted and her acquittal got confirmed by MA.

I don't think it is an isolated case. However I can't recall spontaneously any case of acquittal where Islam was concerned. It doesn't mean that there are none though. My opinion, which is obviously just an opinion, is that it is however VERY hard to gain an acquittal when Islam is involved because there is immediately a tremendous pressure on the judges, which is the last thing you want when you are looking for an acquittal. The more discreet your case, the higher your chances are.
 
It's the case of Pendetta Heidi Eugenie
It's an interesting case by the way, which certainly highlights that nutcases come from all board. Pendetta Heidi Eugenie had a preach which displeased some in her jemaat. She said in her sermon that the snake which allegedly tempted Adam and Eva in the Garden of Heaven was half female which contradicts Christian teachings. Some people were so pissed off that they reported her and she ended up in jail for a few months before being acquitted by the District Court.

Many expats here live in predominantly Muslim areas and complain, often rightfully, about Islam becoming radical. Let me tell you one thing; if you would be living in a predominantly Christian area as I do, you would very quickly realize that radicalism isn't a monopoly of Islam. There is no one week where I don't have (short) discussions with people, leaving me perplex. It is a different form of radicalism than the one we see in Islam, less visible but nevertheless worrying.
 
Many expats here live in predominantly Muslim areas and complain, often rightfully, about Islam becoming radical. Let me tell you one thing; if you would be living in a predominantly Christian area as I do, you would very quickly realize that radicalism isn't a monopoly of Islam. There is no one week where I don't have (short) discussions with people, leaving me perplex. It is a different form of radicalism than the one we see in Islam, less visible but nevertheless worrying.

Could you elaborate on the different forms of "radicalism", as you see it. Thanks.
 
Could you elaborate on the different forms of "radicalism", as you see it. Thanks.
If I were Atlantis, I'd be worried that answering that question would open me up to blasphemy charges...

The thing is, most of the people I've seen called radical are people who take their holy writing and teachings literally... which makes it hard to argue with their point of view... without being blasphemous.
 
If I were Atlantis, I'd be worried that answering that question would open me up to blasphemy charges...

The thing is, most of the people I've seen called radical are people who take their holy writing and teachings literally... which makes it hard to argue with their point of view... without being blasphemous.

Could you elaborate on the lack of freedom of speech as you see it? :smile:
 
Could you elaborate on the lack of freedom of speech as you see it? :smile:
If I were happyman, I'd be worried that such speech would endanger my freedom.

Seriously, that letter we all sign when we apply ITAP/ITAS, the one where we promise that we will be respectful to Pancasila and stuff... (not remembering the name they gave it) has violation of that agreement ever been used as cause for revocation of the ITAS/ITAP?
 
You might know the (in Indonesian) very famous filthy rich (currently) blue haired YouTuber Atta Halilintar from his "kopi asli Guys!" TV advertisement.

Two years after posting self made videos about kids playing around during prayer (time), he got reported for blasphemy. You could see them hitting each other's feet or with a phone.

The weird thing is, is that in Malaysia the video is rather popular and used in an educational way to teach kids how (not) to behave while praying.


images
 
There is a long time that the body of Justice is decayed and don't even need a coffin scouser59.

In Indonesia, do NOT argue with anything concerning the majority religion (it is valid for Christianity where it is the majority religion too and very certainly with Hinduism in Bali). If one can't deal with this, then Indonesia is not the country where one should settle because it is not gonna change.
The majority in most countries enjoys an unwritten benefit. If you don't assimilate well with your community. Then it's best to move to another area. That's common sense.
 

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