Back as an upper-middle income country, but will Indonesia be trapped there?

[Balifrog]

Major impact on sea life, though

Not much sea life at 4.000 m depth !

And sure less harmfull than open pit mines where you chase the animals, destroy the forest, torch the earth, use massive ICE machinery, pollute the air, etc...

 

[Balifrog]

On the other hand they subsidize the more expensive hybrid and EV vehicles, making them more affordable for the ones who could already afford them; the middle and upper class. This while people in the lower class -people who are equally dependent on their car, if they could afford one in the first place- are struggling more and more to keep up with their car payments.

A few things seldom mentionned :

• the actual governments budgets depends a lot on revenue (taxes) on oil products (petrol / diesel). As long as only 10% of the population drives EVs the impact.is bearable, after that they will have to invent a new tax to fill the gap. And it will be a "roadtax" on EV, a tax on EV charging or whatever. Governments are very creative in this domain, they will find a way. I read recently that some US states already started this.
• the subsides to buy an EV will have to stop, it is a huge cost. Not speaking that like in Europe this subsidies (paid with the people's taxes) partly subsidizes China and Korea manufacturers...And that the revenue tax I pay on my pension is used to subsidize some rich bourgeois buying a 100k euro Tesla

As with most things in the last 5 years, government jump in crazy schemes without having properly studied the subject and it's consequences (think global warming, Covid, Ukraine war,..)

PS : can't wait to see in 10 years all the electric cars making fantastic fireworks when set on fire during our usual bi monthly mass demonstrations in France ! And police / fire brigade busy charging their Electric cars and bused...

 

[centurion]

Nobody mentions that batteries are made of nickel(Indonesia, Philippines, Russia), cobalt (Congo and China), or lithium (South America, Australia). Probably not enough minerals in the whole world to power all these EVs for 10 billion people, and will have to mine asteroids in the future.

Indonesia is the biggest producer of nickel in the world btw, with its coal-powered industry and nickel smelters. There are rumors that many influential individuals are invested in nickel mines, so the push for clean electric cars and restrictions on regular ones comes from there.

 

[Balifrog]

Rare earth materials are not that rare.
But expensive to mine / process / transform and a big environmental issue.
Not even speaking about the need for huge water volume for the treatment. (Same as for microchips).
Water will be the next big battle.

 

[Samoerai]

Not much sea life at 4.000 m depth !

And sure less harmfull than open pit mines where you chase the animals, destroy the forest, torch the earth, use massive ICE machinery, pollute the air, etc...

Scientists and conservation organizations warn that deep-sea mining threatens to unleash a new, unproven technique on the deep sea, with 64 percent of the earth's surface the largest ecosystem on earth, a dark, cold and silent world of slow-growing organisms and ecosystems formed over millions of years about which we know next to nothing. And that can have a major impact on biodiversity and the climate.

Mining can also disrupt the processes by which the oceans absorb and sequester CO2 and thus slow down warming. According to research, deep-sea mining can be 25 times more damaging than land-based mining, and recovery is virtually impossible and prohibitively expensive.

 

[Samoerai]

the actual governments budgets depends a lot on revenue (taxes) on oil products (petrol / diesel)

Indonesia relies too heavily on the sale of raw materials such as palm oil and coal, as a result of which a small group of oligarchs become very rich and can buy political influence in Jakarta to delay e.g. implementing solar panels and electric cars. At the same time, Indonesia is buying out foreign mining companies and trying to move the country up the value chain by building smelters and refineries. Well, that model produces good results almost nowhere in the world.

If Indonesia really wants to make progress quickly, a national program is needed in which government, industry and universities work closely and long-term (see also post #27). Taiwan and South Korea have succeeded. China partly. In those countries, the government invested billions in a sector, such as the car industry or electronics; shielded it from foreign competitors and gave its own entrepreneurs and researchers time to develop a product that could survive on the international market.

 

[Samoerai]

Indonesia is the biggest producer of nickel in the world btw, with its coal-powered industry and nickel smelters. There are rumors that many influential individuals are invested in nickel mines, so the push for clean electric cars and restrictions on regular ones comes from there.

True .. here is a link

Indonesia says BASF, Eramet near $2.6 bln deal to process nickel for EV batteries

Germany's BASF and French miner Eramet are finalising a $2.6 billion partnership deal to invest in a facility in Indonesia to process nickel for use in batteries for electric vehicles, Indonesian officials said.

www.reuters.com

 

[Marcel123]

What I noticed here in Indonesia .. is a bit shocking. The children are basicly raised by the pembantu and accordingly. I saw a child screaming and jumping up and down in the elevator. I said "Dia terlalu makan banyak gula?". The pembantu said "Tapi dia manis". Great start for children's education ... not.

Do you ever spend time in the desa"s and see how things are going ?

 

[Samoerai]

Carmakers are targeting price parity around the year 2030 or so.

While countries like Indonesia won't transition until way later - even in the US the optimistic target is only for 50% of new sales to be electric.

The longer Indonesia delays the harder it is to catch up though. At some point I could imagine there might be international consequences to excessive fossil fuel burning

In Indonesia it might be better to start with the electric motors/scooters? In Bali an entrepreneur is manufacturing electric scooters: https://gesitsmotors.com/en/

Electric scooters, made in Indonesia.

 

[Samoerai]

Indomie. That's actually not a bad idea. Considering that not just Indomie, but other Indonesian FMCGs are consumed overseas and has a market there, I don't think there has ever been a government effort to actively promote such things.

In 2022, the volume of instant noodles consumed in Indonesia increased to approximately 14.26 billion servings. Indomie, a brand owned by Indofood, an Indonesian local company, is the most preferred instant noodle brand amongst Indonesians.

However, the Indonesian instant noodle industry has problems: the grain for those noodles comes from Ukraine and the fertilizer for the paddy fields comes from Russia.

 

[Balifrog]

Scientists and conservation organizations warn that deep-sea mining threatens to unleash a new, unproven technique on the deep sea, with 64 percent of the earth's surface the largest ecosystem on earth, a dark, cold and silent world of slow-growing organisms and ecosystems formed over millions of years about which we know next to nothing. And that can have a major impact on biodiversity and the climate.

Mining can also disrupt the processes by which the oceans absorb and sequester CO2 and thus slow down warming. According to research, deep-sea mining can be 25 times more damaging than land-based mining, and recovery is virtually impossible and prohibitively expensive.

Having looked seriously at the subject, knowing the technology (airlift, used in foundation and piling) I disagree.
But not gonna start a debate on it.
But if you have a link to the 25x more damaging (I smile), please post it. Curious to see the argumentation.

Concerning deep sea mining, several very clear videos on Y.T. on how it works.
Here is a basic one.

 

[Balifrog]

In Indonesia it might be better to start with the electric motors/scooters? In Bali an entrepreneur is manufacturing electric scooters: https://gesitsmotors.com/en/

Electric scooters, made in Indonesia.

Yes, that's how China started. Around 15 / 20 years ago.

 

[Samoerai]

But not gonna start a debate on it.

No need. The debat is ongoing in Jamaica at a international conference (United Nations ISA: https://www.isa.org.jm/protection-of-the-marine-environment/).

https://www.isa.org.jm/news/isa-council-opens-part-ii-of-its-28th-session/

28th session 2023 - International Seabed Authority

The 28th Session of the International Seabed Authority

www.isa.org.jm

https://www.isa.org.jm/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/25ltc-6-rev1-en.pdf

 

[Samoerai]

I think we are on a tipping point here where artificial intelligence, robots, online programms etc. can be a "plus" in educating students.

When I was a student, I had to learn everything from books and attending college.

When I watch videos now, on youtube, on the subjects I once studied, I am amazed how nowadays the teachers could / can explain the stuff much better, supported by tons of animations and taped expirements and so.

Also, a cooperation (or like Will Smith's wife phrase "entanglement") between universities and industry is a "plus" in educating and motivating students. I got a much better understanding of the theory, once put in practice. In Eindhoven (home town of Phillips) there is already a tight connection between university and industry and support in "start ups" to put innovations in practice.

I am retired now and with my knowledge (e.g. about how to model a businesscase and calculate or how to analyse datasets based on statistic tool R to see if there’s a correlation between variables). I could teach students the cream of the crop of new methods. But then again I see artificial Intelligence doing a pretty good job in explaining this stuff also.

Here is a link to "what students think about AI"

‘The future is bleak’: how AI concerns are shaping graduate career choices

From illustration to translation, young people worry that they will have to choose their paths carefully

www.theguardian.com

 

[Balifrog]

No need. The debat is ongoing in Jamaica at a international conference (United Nations ISA: https://www.isa.org.jm/protection-of-the-marine-environment/).

https://www.isa.org.jm/news/isa-council-opens-part-ii-of-its-28th-session/

28th session 2023 - International Seabed Authority

The 28th Session of the International Seabed Authority

www.isa.org.jm

https://www.isa.org.jm/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/25ltc-6-rev1-en.pdf

I am a small shareholder in one of the only "active" deepsea mining companies.
So, believe me, I know the subject.

And in my young days I even crossed / sailed through this Clarion / Clipperton area. Not too much traffic to disturb....

 

[Samoerai]

I am a small shareholder in one of the only "active" deepsea mining companies.
So, believe me, I know the subject.

And in my young days I even crossed / sailed through this Clarion / Clipperton area. Not too much traffic to disturb....

The Metals Company (TMC) from Cananda? This company is likely to start next month with deep sea mining. The new gold fever rush. Good investment!

There have been 31 exploration licenses granted covering a total area of 1.5 million square kilometers, of which 25 are owned by seven countries (China, Japan, South Korea, Germany, Russia, France and India) and three companies in Belgium, Canada and the US, in particular for the extraction of manganese nodules, and mainly focused on the Clarion-Clipperton Zone, an area in the Eastern Pacific Ocean.

 

[Nimbus]

What I noticed here in Indonesia .. is a bit shocking. The children are basicly raised by the pembantu and accordingly. I saw a child screaming and jumping up and down in the elevator. I said "Dia terlalu makan banyak gula?". The pembantu said "Tapi dia manis". Great start for children's education ... not.

That has been the case for a long time. I don’t remember a time when a single earner family is a norm in Indonesia, at least in Jakarta. Except for the richest families, both parents have to work, which leaves the kids to the domestic workers. I was raised by pembantu too, and I don’t turn out too bad. The process that molds the kids to fit into society comes in middle and high schools, by their peers.

But I totally get it. Many Indonesian kids that I saw in the past month grated on my nerves too. I feel that many of them are given too much leeway, so they act like spoiled little kings and queens. Many of them never heard of the concept of “inside voice”. On my flight to Singapore one such queen acted up to the point where the flight attendant had to be involved, twice. She insisted that she wanted to move seats, and refused to buckle up. Instead of telling the little shit to behave, the parents pleaded with her and tried to placate her with all sorts of rewards. If that were my kid, I would have told her to be quiet and buckle up, and that would have been it, because that command would also come with the ‘look’. The look that says (without words) you better comply or I will unleash hell on you later.

 

[flavus]

In Indonesia it might be better to start with the electric motors/scooters? In Bali an entrepreneur is manufacturing electric scooters: https://gesitsmotors.com/en/

Electric scooters, made in Indonesia.

Agreed. electric scooters, then delivery vans and local buses. Heh, also build more rail networks and electrify them so you can shift transportation away from the roads.

(Even here in the US midwest, the regional rail network in my area only has one line electrified. Sigh).

 

[Samoerai]

The process that molds the kids to fit into society comes in middle and high schools, by their peers.

Hmm, the behaviour of high school kids is a bit shocking to me also. They hang out in the mall (in uniforms) e.g. in Starbucks. Loud. Drinking their frappucino's. And then leave without cleaning up the table or throwing their garbage in the bin. Expecting the workers will clean up. Actually, the behaviour of the adults is also not up to par. One example (out of many). In the apartment building i saw a familie. The parents bought some bikes for their children, age 5 kira-kira. And let them bike in the lobby and swimming pool. Nobody said anything. I did eventually. In the Netherlands you would be addressed and asked to considerate of other people.

 

[flavus]

And then leave without cleaning up the table or throwing their garbage in the bin. Expecting the workers will clean up.

I heard that when the first IKEA opened in the Jakarta suburbs, precisely this happened. Culture clash, arguably, but in this case the Indonesian 'culture' is embarrassing.