Back as an upper-middle income country, but will Indonesia be trapped there?

[Pak Tani]

That's why the level of education in Indonesia is relatively low, including the international schools. Salaries are too low and working permits procedures are too complicated.

There has been a study in indonesia that investigated the relationship between doubling teachers' salary and student performance. Your comment refers to foreign teachers so this study is not held in the same context.

Higher teacher pay may increase teacher motivation and effort, yet little rigorous evidence exists on how large teacher salary increases might improve student learning. Researchers examined the impact of doubling teacher salary on student and teacher performance in Indonesia. This intervention had some positive effects on teachers: they reported higher levels of satisfaction with their jobs and less financial stress and were less likely to have a second job. However, doubling teacher salary had no effect on teacher knowledge, student test scores, or self-reported teacher attendance.

But I do agree with you, somehow education here is not very effective. What I can remember from the time I still taught here was that the students lacked eagerness to learn. It seemed many just attended classes and studied to get a reasonable grade on a test, not to gain the knowledge.

Maybe better customization is needed.

 

[Samoerai]

There has been a study in indonesia that investigated the relationship between doubling teachers' salary and student performance. Your comment refers to foreign teachers so this study is not held in the same context.




But I do agree with you, somehow education here is not very effective. What I can remember from the time I still taught here was that the students lacked eagerness to learn. It seemed many just attended classes and studied to get a reasonable grade on a test, not to gain the knowledge.

Maybe better customization is needed.

Interesting research, I will check this later. But for now, I didnot read your conclusion in the report about "no effect on students' testscores" ... where exactly is this reported?

 

[Pak Tani]

Interesting research, I will check this later. But for now, I didnot read your conclusion in the report about "no effect on students' testscores" ... where exactly is this reported?

My conclusion that education needs to be customized to improve student performance?
Well, for instance something that makes teaching challenging and not very effective is when your class consists of students that have very different abilities. Finding a middle way in between the quick learners and the ones 'that need more time to grasp things' is doable, but not optimal. Not for the quick ones nor the slower ones. They shouldn't be in one class.

 

[ChrisTex]

That's why the level of education in Indonesia is relatively low, including the international schools. Salaries are too low and working permits procedures are too complicated. I read in another thread that parents want to homeschool their only daughter. I would too.

Yes and no. It all depends on the school and what the expectations of the teachers are. You also need to factor in the tuition cost, enrollment, target audience, and curriculum used. A school like JIS or SPH do pay good, but some for the smaller International and National Plus schools, they aren't going to be able to compete with those salaries.

Do I think covid has played an issue on salaries and what can be offered? Yes. Is it the only reason why teachers don't come to Indonesia? No.

Visa and work permits, it is complicated. Plus if a country(not just Indonesia) requires only certain passport holders can teach certain subjects, then that narrows the list down even further.

 

[ChrisTex]

Out of curiosity (I totally believe you EF is shady) - what's misleading about this specifically? That they have a single posting that lists only China but then try to send people to other countries?

This is my take on EF as the company based on my experience and what I saw and heard to go along with the post I had shared. I enjoyed the kids I taught and the people I worked with(well most of them), but the company as a whole, not so much.

On LinkedIn, you can do a job search by city. EF will post and make it appear that they have a center in that city, but instead are saying nope, it is in China. Oh and if you were to job search, you would also find the same type of postings in Japan, South Korea, and Emirates. My issue is I am looking for a job in a particular city, state, or country, but see them do it all the time, I start to question it. Also just in the area where I am moving back to, there were 13 different posts with all the same thing. So it isn't just one post and I am certain they do this for other major cities as well.

-After applying: What they don't tell you is, you are basically offered to the different centers to see who wants you. They wills end you a list of centers to choose from(at least that is what they did in 2017 with centers in Jakarta). Not a bad thing, but if you don't know anything about the city or country you are moving to, then this could cause frustration at some point. Since I was already in Jakarta, I looked at the location and how much traffic I figured I would be in.

-Visa: this is where it gets shady. EF as a company doesn't do the work permit, but the the individual centers do. I have heard a number of different stories from random people leaving reviews and also from people I worked with. I have not experienced this, but I have heard from mutiple people some centers will keep your passport.

-Full flights: Only after 1 full year.

-Housing: Depends on the center and how they value people. The center I worked at, the owner didn't value anyone, but himself.

-Claiming they will sponsor certification. Don't make me laugh. They will say come back when you have it. I applied maybe in 2016 and they asked about the TEFL/TESOL/Celta certification. I ask them about what the website had said., then they ghosted me. Applied a year later with a certification and they didn't even blink an eye.

-Academics: They claim their curriculum is award winning , but it is a meh. Seen better, but I have also seen worse. if a student leaves for whatever reason, 99.99999% of the time they say it is an academic matter even when it isn't.

-Competitive salary and performance bonus: 14j(12 salary and 2 housing) is not competitive. I doubled my money when I went to teach at a National Plus school. Oh and if you are an Indonesian teacher with 10+ years experience, it will be less than 5j if full time. Part time might be about 250-300k per class, but if the class is canceled, sorry you don't get paid. Also what performance bonus? Also you are a marketing tool and aren't paid for it.

-Travel: Very unlikely considering the pay. Plus you don't have too much PTO.

-Professional training and development: What is that? Supposedly you can get something, but you have to be a private investigator to find it before being approved.

-21 days paid holiday: Read local holydays You might be lucky to get 7 days of PTO.

 

[fastpitch17]

If you want to improve student learning it will take years. To improve education at the K - 12 level you need to change how it's taught. That means changing those that teach who learned the exact same way they teach. To do that you would need to change how teachers are taught at the College level. To do that, you have to have professors who teach the same way they were taught.

The entire teaching process needs to change. Years of work and really, what has lasted years here? With every change of an Education Minister they proclaim how they will improve the education of Indonesian children only to do things like incorporate nationalism classes replacing subjects that may actually benefit a student. Curriculums are not based on preparing a student for their future unless that future is standing at a stall selling bakso. They could probably make change.

Teachers once hired figure they are set for life and get to wear those army surplus uniforms with their patches telling everyone they are important. No additional training and pretty much get to come and go as they please.

A bigger problem is the private schools. Mainly religious based. The Catholic schools seem to do a good job and a lot of non catholic parents want their kids to go to them. Islamic based schools are a different story. So many teachers who just don't qualify as a teacher. Government funds most of these school but if they happen to graduate a student who does well it is normally due to the students experiences outside the school. Or, they want to preach.

So, how does one improve Indonesian Education that the government could possibly get on board with and be supported?

 

[Samoerai]

So, how does one improve Indonesian Education that the government could possibly get on board with and be supported?

I think we are on a tipping point here where artificial intelligence, robots, online programms etc. can be a "plus" in educating students.

When I was a student, I had to learn everything from books and attending college.

When I watch videos now, on youtube, on the subjects I once studied, I am amazed how nowadays the teachers could / can explain the stuff much better, supported by tons of animations and taped expirements and so.

Also, a cooperation (or like Will Smith's wife phrase "entanglement") between universities and industry is a "plus" in educating and motivating students. I got a much better understanding of the theory, once put in practice. In Eindhoven (home town of Phillips) there is already a tight connection between university and industry and support in "start ups" to put innovations in practice.

I am retired now and with my knowledge (e.g. about how to model a businesscase and calculate or how to analyse datasets based on statistic tool R to see if there’s a correlation between variables). I could teach students the cream of the crop of new methods. But then again I see artificial Intelligence doing a pretty good job in explaining this stuff also.

 

[flavus]

A bigger problem is the private schools. Mainly religious based. The Catholic schools seem to do a good job and a lot of non catholic parents want their kids to go to them. Islamic based schools are a different story.

There are "Christian" (read: Protestant - in Indonesia like in the US, this term seems to exclude Catholics by default somehow) schools too. In Jakarta they are academically quite good, in other cities I hear the Catholic ones are better.

That being said, yeah, religious schools come with religious indoctrination. One plus of the public school system (provided you are lucky enough to get admitted to a good one) is that there are at least choices of what religious ed class you take. If you attend a religious school ... you're forced to take RE class in that religion, no buts.

 

[fastpitch17]

There are "Christian" (read: Protestant - in Indonesia like in the US, this term seems to exclude Catholics by default somehow) schools too. In Jakarta they are academically quite good, in other cities I hear the Catholic ones are better.

That being said, yeah, religious schools come with religious indoctrination. One plus of the public school system (provided you are lucky enough to get admitted to a good one) is that there are at least choices of what religious ed class you take. If you attend a religious school ... you're forced to take RE class in that religion, no buts.

Catholic schools do not force religion classes on anyone not Catholic. I have nieces and nephews that are Muslim who attend Catholic schools and have never taken religious based classes at them. Catholic as well as Christian based schools are tuition based. Too bad every privately run school isn't the same and the gov funding all goes towards public education.

 

[flavus]

Catholic schools do not force religion classes on anyone not Catholic. I have nieces and nephews that are Muslim who attend Catholic schools and have never taken religious based classes at them. Catholic as well as Christian based schools are tuition based. Too bad every privately run school isn't the same and the gov funding all goes towards public education.

Ah, good to know. That matches this account

Cerita Dariku, Anak Muslim yang Seumur Hidup Dididik di Sekolah Katolik

Ternyata tumbuh di lingkungan berbeda tak membuatku meninggalkan ajaran agamaku

www.hipwee.com

Seems like there is a threshold above which a school must provide religious instructions for their minority kids too. Not sure when that became part of the law.

(I still prefer the approach in Singapore - no religious education in the curriculum. Schools might have religious assemblies, and in this I note protestant schools - mostly Methodist in Singapore - force everyone non Muslim to go while Catholic schools let anyone non Catholic to sit out)

 

[serious_fun]

Out of curiosity (I totally believe you EF is shady) - what's misleading about this specifically? That they have a single posting that lists only China but then try to send people to other countries?

The word 'pimp' comes to mind. "Employment Agencies" or "Recruiters" may be convenient for some, but I hate that there's someone in the middle (often taking a HUGE chunk up front or over a period of time )

 

[serious_fun]

Start with ..
1. Dua anak cukup
2. Free and good education
3. Don't say "kerja untuk Indonesia". But "kerja bagus untuk Indonesia". Only be proud of good quality results.
4. Less corruption
5. As a country, be good in one thing and trade that.
6. Improve infrastructure
7. Step up to implement green energy resources (solar pannels, wind energy, hydrogen, etc).
8. Ban carbon based fuel cars and motors. Support electric based cars and motors
9. Implement social security system.
10. Let the mosques stop making noise in the middle of the night.

Would be my top 10.

A very good list, though I disagree with #8. Even in the so-called "developed world" the infrastructure doesn't exist for that to happen.

IMHO EV sales will stall significantly in the near future.

 

[Samoerai]

A very good list, though I disagree with #8. Even in the so-called "developed world" the infrastructure doesn't exist for that to happen.

IMHO EV sales will stall significantly in the near future.

Thanks! In the Netherlands the infrastructure for electric cars already exists: 120,000 poles for charging and 4,200 for fast charging at the highways. And last year 26% of the car sales to families (meaning not business) are electric cars. In think in other countries in Europe the same trend, with Norway being at the top of the list with 4 electric cars out of 5 car sales. Btw in China the numbers for electric cars are even higher.

The Nerherlands are also going to implement the infrastructure to use hydrogen for heating homes. Actually that infrastructure allready in place (for use of gas).

 

[Balifrog]

Norway has economically "imposed" electric cars by making ICE vehicles expensive, and restricting their use, and at the same "subsiding" the purchase of E.V.'s
The Netherlands are a small country, it's difficult to.make a "long" trip without crossing the borders ! Small country facilitates the installation of a charging network.
But I admit that the Dutch are more "environment minded" than say the French or Italians.

Good I am of a certain age and no plan to ever buy a car again.

 

[serious_fun]

Thanks! In the Netherlands the infrastructure for electric cars already exists: 120,000 poles for charging and 4,200 for fast charging at the highways. And last year 26% of the car sales to families (meaning not business) are electric cars. In think in other countries in Europe the same trend, with Norway being at the top of the list with 4 electric cars out of 5 car sales. Btw in China the numbers for electric cars are even higher.

The Nerherlands are also going to implement the infrastructure to use hydrogen for heating homes. Actually that infrastructure allready in place (for use of gas).

Thanks - I didn't realize that; I wonder about trucking companies... are there facilities for fleets of EV trucks with those huge batteries?

In any case, my feelings about EVs are the same. I really don't see sales around the world continuing to increase without mandates from the overlords and the state-sponsored industries.

 

[flavus]

Carmakers are targeting price parity around the year 2030 or so.

While countries like Indonesia won't transition until way later - even in the US the optimistic target is only for 50% of new sales to be electric.

The longer Indonesia delays the harder it is to catch up though. At some point I could imagine there might be international consequences to excessive fossil fuel burning

 

[Pak Tani]

Carmakers are targeting price parity around the year 2030 or so.

While countries like Indonesia won't transition until way later - even in the US the optimistic target is only for 50% of new sales to be electric.

In the west they are pushing this by taxing combustion engine vehicles and fuels higher and higher. They also come up with new things they can impose tax on or prohibit vehicles with certain types of engines to enter certain areas.

On the other hand they subsidize the more expensive hybrid and EV vehicles, making them more affordable for the ones who could already afford them; the middle and upper class. This while people in the lower class -people who are equally dependent on their car, if they could afford one in the first place- are struggling more and more to keep up with their car payments.

I hope Indonesia is not going to play this game of wealth redistribution. Let the market sort itself out. If car manufacturers can produce a better and cheaper alternative for the combustion engine, people will buy them.

The longer Indonesia delays the harder it is to catch up though. At some point I could imagine there might be international consequences to excessive fossil fuel burning

But does the international community realize that Indonesia is building coal fired power plants to supply electricity to the mines (where they mine nickel for the production of car batteries)?
Do they realize the massive deforestation in Sulawesi, thousands of hectares of rain forest is cut down to build mines to meet the international demand for rare earth metals?
Do they realize the environmental and socio-economical impact of the pollution of the rivers and seas near those mines?

Indonesia is profiting a lot from the mondial transition to EV's, but it is paying a large price also.
I think there are plenty of trade offs when switching from fossil fuels to electricity and governments should be careful when pushing this transition.

 

[Samoerai]

Do they realize the massive deforestation in Sulawesi, thousands of hectares of rain forest is cut down to build mines to meet the international demand for rare earth metals?
Do they realize the environmental and socio-economical impact of the pollution of the rivers and seas near those mines?

Yes, they understand .. but they need the earth metals .. but don't want the mines in their own backyards.

 

[Samoerai]

Yes, they understand .. but they need the earth metals .. but don't want the mines in their own backyards.

Last week there was a international meeting in Jamaica on the exploitation of minerals in and on the seabed that are crucial for the transition to a sustainable economy.

"A possible decision-making meeting of the International Seabed Authority (ISA) will start in Jamaica on Sunday. That is a UN body with 167 summaries (US is an observer) that, based on the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, monitors international waters and the seabed below (seas and oceans that fall outside the territorial waters and exclusive economic zones of coastal states), and on its exploration and exploitation. During the summit, the green light can be given to start deep-sea mining for the first time."

Major impact on sea life, though. But we need those batteries and China is playing hard ball for trading those minerals ...

ISA Council opens Part II of its 28th session - International Seabed Authority

The Council of the International Seabed Authority (ISA) opened the meetings of Part II of its 28th session on Monday, 10 July 2023. The Council will be meeting for ten days until 21 July 2023. As per the roadmap agreed upon at the meetings in November 2022, the priority set out by the Council is

www.isa.org.jm

 

[serious_fun]

... even in the US the optimistic target is only for 50% of new sales to be electric.

I just read this article: Waiting For 'Buyers To Come': Unsold Electric Vehicles Piling Up In Car Dealerships, Says Report

Of course, most American consumers seem to be struggling financially, but the surveys mentioned in the article were related to "interest", however that was measured.