Punishment for women who don't want to wear jilbab

[Pimpin]

Why don't you have another drink or toke. One more should about do it.

Wise to suggest illegal drug usage?

 

[fastpitch17]

Wise to suggest illegal drug usage?

That would depend where you are. You don't indicate that.

 

[Dan]

Actually, it is my wife who is worried about the decline of local culture. She is Indonesian, so it is her business to be concerned of the rejection of her traditions. However, she is not a member of this forum, so I’m speaking out for her (and for the sake of our children too). I believe she is not the only Indonesian who care about their local customs. There must be a lot of people with the same feeling, but unfortunately, many are silent. As Edmund Burke said, “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”. I am not saying that evil is happening but her local culture and traditions are under threat. If nothing is done, even memory and records of how Indonesian people used to dress (for example) will be erased forever in a hundred years. In other words, change is gradual, someday everybody will have to wear hijab, then everybody will have to wear burka, and by this time, history books and pictures will be destroyed so children grow up thinking this is normal and it is their culture to wear burka.

I definitely don't dress like my ancestors did 100 years ago. In part you're describing a recognized process in societies, you acknowledge that by saying that "change is gradual." If indigenous people choose to accept a new manner of dress, new customs, is it actually something to lament?

There's a lot of talk in my hometown of New Orleans about gentrification and its impact on some of our "unique flavor." After Hurricane Katrina, many neighborhoods that had homes passed on to relatives for generations were being sold to young people from outside of the city. Most of these young people outwardly express a desire for maintaining the unique character of New Orleans, but do not have the appropriate "pedigree" for our rather parochial local people. They largely don't have children, and so they cannot pass on our traditions. The fear is that some day, there will no longer be Mardi Gras Indians or Mardi Gras Krewes.

Instead they've done what has happened for generations with each new and successive wave of immigrants and newcomers: they've started their own traditions and made their own mark. I don't always like what they bring to the table, but our pervasive attitude of what I call "therapeutic apathy" infects them like it does everyone else. They aren't of a Catholic origin, yet they have learned to embrace Carnival and put their own spin on it just like how we do Carnival very differently from the rest of the Latin world.

Here's an opposite view for you: if they were really such pious, Taliban-level Muslims would they try incorporating their Islamic values into traditional dress at all? Perhaps the fact that they are making an effort to integrate shows the opposite of what you fear.

 

[Dan]

Also, consider some of my old positions on LIIEF. Some of you may remember my frank opposition to the influence of Christianity in Aceh. So strong was my bigotry that I even suggested that Christians in Aceh should take the trek to Medan for church services! Part of my concern was a possible decline in Acehnese culture and customs.

I was persuasively convinced by other forum members that I was wrong. I was trying to impose my values, my prejudices, on the Acehnese.

If the Acehnese people were to turn into Evangelical Nondenominational Presby-Lutherans tomorrow they'd still be Acehnese people just like how their ancestors were once Hindus and Buddhists.

 

[Nimbus]

Culture is fluid. Before Islam Indonesia was largely Hindu, and before that she was animist. Javanese men didn't wear any shirt, nor the women for that matter. Then the Dutch came and men began to wear Beskap, a clearly western-inspired coat. Now that top is considered as Javanese as gudeg.

As long as women are free to wear whatever they want (Jilbab included), there's no problem. Indonesia is guaranteed to lose the old culture, but that's because the new culture is being invented continuously. No matter what, Indonesia will never become Saudi Arabia, or even Malaysia.

 

[Nimbus]

"Arabization," just like how Shihab and company in FPI talk about "Christianization," right?

Here in the United States there's a lot of talk about something called "cultural appropriation." In a nutshell it's a term applied almost exclusively to white people whenever they make some kind of modern, liberal foible of wearing clothing or their hair in a manner they don't supposedly "own." It's bullshit, obviously, a symptom of how the Left loves to eat itself.

It's also something I don't ever expect to encounter among Indonesians. We're dealing with peoples who have spent centuries engaged in trade with people from around the world. Yes, you can encounter some provincial attitudes and even xenophobia, but you're also very unlikely to ever have them criticize you for wearing batik or adopting local custom. In fact, you'll find the opposite is true: the indigenous peoples LOVE IT when visitors appreciate and "appropriate" their culture.

None of the expatriates on this forum have lost their identity because they took to wearing batik. Not a one of you. But it's very telling that some of you are bent out of shape because women (note that no pictures of men were used and the discussion is just about the jilbab rather than the tagiyyah or topi or beards...) are choosing to express their Islamic identity, to find what they believe to be spiritual fulfillment. Suddenly, the atmosphere has been ruined because they are so pedestrian as to be Muslims.

I'm curious, are you really worried about the supposed decline of local culture or are you worried about how the local people should be dressing to appeal to the lot of you?

Cultural appropriation is basically plagiarism, it's taking someone else's work and passing it on as your own. If you wear batik and acknowledge that it's an homage to Indonesia, then nobody minds. If you wear batik then claim you invented it, then people will have a huge issue about it. Malaysia was trying to claim that Batik is theirs, That caused a huge uproar.

 

[sul1995]

I definitely don't dress like my ancestors did 100 years ago. In part you're describing a recognized process in societies, you acknowledge that by saying that "change is gradual." If indigenous people choose to accept a new manner of dress, new customs, is it actually something to lament?

Not all of Indonesia's indigenous people are Muslims, if the majority accept a new manner of dress, how does it affect the minority and the country in general? Let's get into the mind of the minority, what does religious minorities in Indonesia fear the most? It is the fear of the country becoming a caliphate or an Islamic country. To counter this, they want the country to preserve pluralism and its secular laws. They also need the Muslim majority to remain tolerant towards them (the minorities). However, as more and more women wear hijab, more and more are becoming intolerant. If wearing hijab means becoming intolerant, then something is wrong. And that’s aside from adulterating Indonesia’s culture which has no tradition of Muslims wearing hijab. I believe Indonesia should maintain its local tradition of Islam, one that espouses tolerance and peace and has existed in the country for centuries.

 

[Dan]

Cultural appropriation is basically plagiarism, it's taking someone else's work and passing it on as your own. If you wear batik and acknowledge that it's an homage to Indonesia, then nobody minds. If you wear batik then claim you invented it, then people will have a huge issue about it. Malaysia was trying to claim that Batik is theirs, That caused a huge uproar.

Well, here's the thing: the person who invented wax dying wasn't Indonesian and isn't alive today. I don't think we can safely pinpoint who did it. We could go a bit further, and say that there are homegrown techniques and patterns that are clearly Indonesian. Still, if I were an Indonesian *I* would not have invented it. To say it is mine or it is "my culture's" is to deny individual accomplishment. I may attribute it to my identity, but to claim ownership over it or to (lol) claim I was somehow wronged or violated because someone else "appropriated" it is silly. Plagiarism would suggest I had some intellectual property, but since I don't own a patent on wax dying or because no one I know personally invented it it's a tenuous claim at best.

Cultural appropriation is a term used exclusively for white people whenever we have the audacity to step out of line with the mercurial moods of liberal minds. One day it's appreciation, the next day its theft of culture.

I am waiting for the day when Indonesians accuse Africans of appropriation. That day will (thankfully) never come. However, if a white man were to wear a dashiki-inspired fashion he designed himself, holy shit! Cultural appropriation! Burn the witch!

 

[Dan]

Not all of Indonesia's indigenous people are Muslims, if the majority accept a new manner of dress, how does it affect the minority and the country in general? Let's get into the mind of the minority, what does religious minorities in Indonesia fear the most? It is the fear of the country becoming a caliphate or an Islamic country. To counter this, they want the country to preserve pluralism and its secular laws. They also need the Muslim majority to remain tolerant towards them (the minorities). However, as more and more women wear hijab, more and more are becoming intolerant. If wearing hijab means becoming intolerant, then something is wrong. And that’s aside from adulterating Indonesia’s culture which has no tradition of Muslims wearing hijab. I believe Indonesia should maintain its local tradition of Islam, one that espouses tolerance and peace and has existed in the country for centuries.

You see the jilbab as a symptom of growing conservatism and political expression of Islam. I see it as an expression of identity and, more frequently, an expression of fashion. To me it seems to largely be a matter of taste.

I get that you're fearful of a more religious, less tolerant Indonesia. We've definitely seen our fair share of that in the past year.

We've also seen a strong, positive reaction against it. These things are cyclical. In twenty years, if we're all still contributing to this forum, we can talk about the *liberated* locals and moral decay.

 

[Dan]

Here's an example of "cultural appropriation."
http://www.sfgate.com/food/article/2-white-women-opened-a-burrito-shop-It-closed-11173885.php

"They wouldn't tell us too much about technique, but we were peeking into the windows of every kitchen, totally fascinated by how easy they made it look."


Many took to social media and the comment section of the article to express their outrage.

One commenter — of hundreds — claims the women "boldly and pretty f---ing unapologetically stole the basis of these women's livelihoods" so that "other white ppl don't have to be inconvenienced of dealing with a pesky brown middle woman getting in their way."

"They are clearly exploiting centuries of tradition and survival," wrote another.

News site Mic later picked up the story and brought it national attention with a story called, "These white cooks bragged about stealing recipes from Mexico to start a Portland business."

The Portland Mercury later ran its own coverage of the story. The blog post begins: "Portland has an appropriation problem," before going on to claim that Connelly and Wilgus "preyed upon" locals in order to "appropriate the secrets of their livelihood."

"These two white women went to Mexico, ate tacos, and then decided they would just take what the locals clearly didn't want to give them," it continues.

See? They *stole* the livelihoods of those women in a foreign country. Clearly their foodstall, in Portland, Oregon, was in direct competition with the women of Mexico they consulted. Their use of peeking in windows was clearly tongue in cheek.

It's all a lot of garbage used to inspire contempt for white people doing what is normal and human. Fiendish, sometimes conspiratorial aims are given for the honest adoption of recipes and clothing and hairstyle. Sometimes we're even demonized for things we've been doing for thousands of years (see dreadlocks).

At the end of the day, the goal of accusations of cultural appropriation is to vilify white people. It's racism by another name.

 

[Pimpin]

"That would depend where you are. You don't indicate that." Fastpitch

Actually depends more on where you are for you suggested it. We know one place you are for sure and that is on this forum.

 

[fastpitch17]

Better have me arrested than. Gather up your posse. I'm right here in Indonesia. Have been for years. Oh, and since I mentioned a common reply to something that made no sense, that would depend on where you are since it referred to your actions, not mine.

 

[Nimbus]

Well, here's the thing: the person who invented wax dying wasn't Indonesian and isn't alive today. I don't think we can safely pinpoint who did it. We could go a bit further, and say that there are homegrown techniques and patterns that are clearly Indonesian. Still, if I were an Indonesian *I* would not have invented it. To say it is mine or it is "my culture's" is to deny individual accomplishment. I may attribute it to my identity, but to claim ownership over it or to (lol) claim I was somehow wronged or violated because someone else "appropriated" it is silly. Plagiarism would suggest I had some intellectual property, but since I don't own a patent on wax dying or because no one I know personally invented it it's a tenuous claim at best.

Cultural appropriation is a term used exclusively for white people whenever we have the audacity to step out of line with the mercurial moods of liberal minds. One day it's appreciation, the next day its theft of culture.

I am waiting for the day when Indonesians accuse Africans of appropriation. That day will (thankfully) never come. However, if a white man were to wear a dashiki-inspired fashion he designed himself, holy shit! Cultural appropriation! Burn the witch!

USA has no protection for regional cultural assets, but Europe does. Products such as Champagne, Cognac, Gorgonzola, Feta, and Camembert can only be labeled as such if they are made in their 'originating' regions. People in these areas certainly didn't invent liquor and cheese, but through the ages they became famous for a particular style, which brought them economic advantage. By this standard anybody can make Champagne, but the right of putting that name on the bottle is reserved to the designated Champagne region. Products made elsewhere would be called "sparkling wine", or other generic names.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geo...raditional_specialities_in_the_European_Union

Nobody in Indonesia cared when Malaysians did their own wax print, it became a problem when they began to call it Batik, then implied that everything by that designation originated in Malaysia.

There is such a thing as cultural appropriation. Maybe the term is being widely abused in America, but that doesn't make it invalid.

 

[Daniel50]

The hijab is merely a symbol for peoples fears that Indonesian culture is evolving into a more Middle Eastern version of Islam. I am sure there are different aspects and cultures in the ME but people are afraid of the oppressive aspects/fundamentalism. Islamic fundamentalists don't seem very open to others including Muslims who don't share their narrow view. All Muslims etc should stand against the growth of this as it is a nightmare for people of every belief or non-belief. I hope it is a cyclical passing phenomenon but it hasn't seemed to cycle out of parts of the ME yet and this is what people fear.

 

[Linochka]

I have a Muslim girlfriend, does anyone know an online store where I can buy a abayas for her?

 

[Helpful Herbert]

The longer I live here, the more I realise that the idea that women wear the jilbab "voluntarily" is completely incorrect.

 

[Puspawarna]

The longer I live here, the more I realise that the idea that women wear the jilbab "voluntarily" is completely incorrect.

I'd be the last person to deny that oppression of women exists in just about any religion, including Islam. However, I'd be curious to know how many jilbab-wearing women, from how many countries, you've actually had serious conversations with about this.

While I would not consider myself an expert by any means, I have had heartfelt conversations with actual Muslim women in both Egypt and Indonesia who voluntarily decided, after not wearing jilbab, to start doing so. And I am friends with a very respected Western scholar whose specialty is women who give the call to prayer, and she's told me a lot about what Muslim women have said to her.

My conclusion from these experiences is that for any of us outsiders to make simplistic, blanket statements about all women who cover is pretty arrogant. You may not like it, but there are jilbab-wearing women out there who actually made their own decisions about what to do. (Particularly among women I spoke to in Egypt, this was sometimes in defiance of what their family members thought.)

People are people, regardless of their gender or religion. In other words, it's always complicated why people do what they do. To reduce the motivation of all Islamic women to a dismissive phrase such as "the idea that women wear the jilbab 'voluntarily' is completely incorrect" does a disservice to women everywhere, and is fundamentally sexist.

I'm sure you think you mean well and are championing women's rights by your statements, but ... you aren't.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

I live in a family where many (actually most) wear the jilbab, and I have had many discussions with those outside the family too such as cleaners, colleagues etc. I am not the bule outsider pretending to take an interest, I live permanently within the community. And I know what I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears, and that is my conclusion.

 

[Hawk256]

I live in a family where many (actually most) wear the jilbab, and I have had many discussions with those outside the family too such as cleaners, colleagues etc. I am not the bule outsider pretending to take an interest, I live permanently within the community. And I know what I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears, and that is my conclusion.

I am in the same situation as you except my experience is the opposite of yours.

 

[Puspawarna]

And I know what I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears, and that is my conclusion.

So, you've spoken to some jilbab-wearing women in Indonesia, and from there you extrapolate to 100% of jilbab-wearing women in the world?

The difference between your confident assertion that you now know what all women think, and my assertion that the situation is nuanced, is that I completely acknowledge that I can't speak for all women who cover. Why is it that YOU can?