Ministry of Agriculture Announces Intention To Ban Dog Meat Trade

[waarmstrong]

By any chance did you find any in Indonesia? Though I admit that the idea of tasting turkey bacon sounds weird to me, you have made me curious.

Sorry, I have not searched for turkey bacon in Jakarta. (Maybe I should.) So far its strictly a Stateside home breakfast choice. Usually do it in the broiler until its nice and crispy; then have to fight with my daughter to get a piece or two before she gobbles it all.

 

[steveandpenny]

I see we have some strong opinions on this subject to say the least. So I figured I'd stir the pot (no not the cooking pot). Yes we live in a area that the dog meat trade is common. And alot uncared for dogs disappear around the hoilydays and weddings .

Yes I have consumed dog meat before but mostly because I've taken to the idea of not asking what I'm eating till after I've tasted something. Have been able to taste some wonderful food that way but I can tell you dog isnt one off them . The 3 times I've eaten it (again not aware its dog) it tasted like crap not pleasant at all. People we know now kindly tell us we might not want to eat food on that table.

That said we are crazy animal lovers . We have a Indonesian young dog named "Market" because he was born in a cage at the meat market in Tomohon and he , his mom, and sister were rescued by AFMI. Hes a freind to our American dog "opa bosco" We also have 4 cats , two were born in our attic and 2 adopted. My wife still gets strange looks for breaking up dog fights in the village and feeding neighbors dogs and give antibotic cream to the owners of dogs that lost the fight. Shes never eaten dog that she knows of and never will..

I've haven eaten bat yet that I know of but come on it's hard not knowing what it is when they stick a stick up its ass and cook it with its wings still on ( we call it a indo corn dog) but have had snake and lizard and both were real good.

So that's our background western meat eating animal lovers.

So here are a few facts in China 3,000 rabies infections have been directly link to the dog meat trade from either consuming it or butchering it. View Nam has almost as many cases. None of these cases come from contact with bites. So one check for stopping dog meat trade.

2# We have no right under any circumstances as expat foreigners to dictate our beliefs on to a country customs. We chose to live here and must respect others customs or get the hell out. So a check for eating dog meat.

3# What should happen to the uncared for or unwanted dogs? Left to starve, disease, beaten or left to a wild pack. A life of fear and pain or as protein ? There arent animal shelters here and in the states million of dogs are killed in these shelters cause over population. So why waste the meat ? Another check for dog meat.

4# The custom of eating dog here is thanks to the Dutch. It's most popular up in the highlands away from the sea. The reason for this is the Dutch not only brought dogs to this area but also took all the pigs away from locals leaving a shortage of proteins. Dogs breed and ran wild not only killing what small game was around . Strays became wild and packs would attack locals so they were killed and eaten. From that a custom was born. Protein for big days to a starving people. Is this a check for or against dog meat I dont know but its those civilize people that cause it as they took what they could from locals while reaping the benefits.

5# The dog trade is a business in the western world. A business of shock. I've seen shows on such networks as National Geographic, Discovery and the Food Network showing the extreme market (that's what it's called on tv) in Tomohon. There are travel tours that advertise it. See the extreme markets of the world.
There are even videos that are out there that show people burning dogs with a blowtorch while still alive hanging from a rope. One of these were made by a animal rights group to raise donations to stop this disgusting and cruel practice. The problem was the guy filming it paid extra to video it while the dog was alive.

I could go on and on. I understand both sides of the issue and respect both sides. But this argument has gotten to a point of name calling on both sides that get us nowhere.

The main point I'm bringing up it's not up to us expats to decide and I'm not sure it's right for Jakarta to impose a law here that doesnt have the support of the local area . By the way no Muslim would ever eat a dog let alone own one.

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

The point is that characterizing as loutish indifferent children, those who do not accept your world view is not going to engender a throng of converts. Forgive my inability to refrain from having a bit of fun with the portentous nature of your rhetoric.

I'm not worried, waarmie. The cavalry may be on slow dial, but they will get here soon enough.

Though I could stick it out by myself, telling you all day long that you guys are wrong and listening back about how foolish I am to care more about the feelings and lives of other species than every person's right to eat whatever they please for breakfast, lunch and supper.

 

[Euc-]

Pigs are as intelligent as dogs and cats, many studies have showed that. They can be trained to an equal or higher level of adherence.

The majority of Indonesia is not allowed to eat pork, Bali and some Bataks are minorities anyway. Let's ban pork meat!

I honestly ask you what the difference is @Pak Asam Manis

 

[Anglian]

I had forgot until I read steveandpennys write up how cruely dogs die, I was told by a Chinese friend the harder you beat a dog and the louder it howls the tastier the meat, I know in the West we do try and cause as little distress as possible, but to torture an animal isn’t really humane

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

Oh wow.

Some Indonesian officials have also deemed an Alcohol ban "appropriate and necessary". What on earth is your point? Because an Indonesian official said it it must be right? Indonesian "officials" have recently stopped vaccinations of children because they are not "Halal certified"...

[bla, bla, bla]

Your kind of self-righteousness, holier-than-thou attitude is exactly what is wrong with the world these days. You are now even advocating further oppression of minorities in a country that already has a very checkered passed when it comes to that and then turn it around and make us the bad guys?

I get the sense that you are not deeply impressed by my arguments or my "attitude", I can assure you, the feeling is fairly mutual.

If you want to support cultural relativism, moral relativism, fine. You don't have to do it by gleefully jumping up and down waving a flag that says "Dog Meat is Yummy!" "Hooray for Dog Meat!", which several of you have chosen to do.

I am fine with other people doing what they want to do, up to a point. If what they like to do involves bashing dogs in the side of the head with heavy sticks or iron bars, electrocuting them, boiling them alive, cooking them with welding torches while they are still alive, et cetera, then yes I will have something to say about it.

I am not physically stopping them from doing it. I am simply advocating that they might should have some "help" to consider stopping and supporting Indonesian government officials who think the same way. I have the right to speak out in such a way just as you have the right to wave your stupid "Meat Is Great, Kill ALL the Animals!" pendant. We both have the right to tell each other "No, you're wrong" all day and all night, and so it goes ... intiendes, o no?

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

I had forgot until I read steveandpennys write up how cruely dogs die, I was told by a Chinese friend the harder you beat a dog and the louder it howls the tastier the meat, I know in the West we do try and cause as little distress as possible, but to torture an animal isn’t really humane

By Guff, Anglian, I believe I see a dim spark of a light going on! I knew you had it in you.

 

[Euc-]

I get the sense that you are not deeply impressed by my arguments or my "attitude", I can assure you, the feeling is fairly mutual.

If you want to support cultural relativism, moral relativism, fine. You don't have to do it by gleefully jumping up and down waving a flag that says "Dog Meat is Yummy!" "Hooray for Dog Meat!", which several of you have chosen to do.

I am fine with other people doing what they want to do, up to a point. If what they like to do involves bashing dogs in the side of the head with heavy sticks or iron bars, electrocuting them, boiling them alive, cooking them with welding torches while they are still alive, et cetera, then yes I will have something to say about it.

I am not physically stopping them from doing it. I am simply advocating that they might should have some "help" to consider stopping and supporting Indonesian government officials who think the same way. I have the right to speak out in such a way just as you have the right to wave your stupid "Meat Is Great, Kill ALL the Animals!" pendant. We both have the right to tell each other "No, you're wrong" all day and all night, and so it goes ... intiendes, o no?

1. I have already specifically mentioned that I personally do not like dog meat, I don't even think anyone so far has said that they actually liked it.

2. That's my point when I said to regulate and control the industry, same as is supposedly happening for any other animal that is considered normal to eat.

What irks me is that you go from one extreme; the absolute mistreatment of dogs (I've heard what Anglian mentioned before), to the complete and outright banning of it, without taking into consideration that for some people eating that meat has been a way of life for whatever reason for many generations.

Although there probably is no "humane" way to slaughter animals, there must be a middle way to be able to allow these minorities to continue their traditions while regulating the slaughter in a way that is deemed "acceptable" just like it is done for chickens, cows, pigs and whatever else.

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

2# We have no right under any circumstances as expat foreigners to dictate our beliefs on to a country customs. We chose to live here and must respect others customs or get the hell out. So a check for eating dog meat.

Your statement is NOT a "check for eating dog meat". It is a statement in support of cultural relativism and respect, which I generally appreciate. Nobody here has advocated a right for foreigners to "dictate" anything to anyone. For the fiftieth time, the INDONESIAN GOVERNMENT, at the national level, has made this decision. I am sure that they were lobbied and influenced in doing so by foreign "outsiders" and one can argue about whether such intervention is appropriate. In this case, I believe it is. In any case, those foreign groups have absolutely no power to "dictate" anything to Indonesians and have not done so.

3# What should happen to the uncared for or unwanted dogs? Left to starve, disease, beaten or left to a wild pack. A life of fear and pain or as protein ? There arent animal shelters here and in the states million of dogs are killed in these shelters cause over population. So why waste the meat ? Another check for dog meat.

Yes, good idea, eat a bunch of Indonesian stray dogs, consuming along the way rabies and any other diseases they (very probably) carry, some of which are surely communicable by consumption.

By the way no Muslim would ever eat a dog let alone own one

And now ladies and gentlemen, I present steveanpenny, a non-Muslim who has lived in Indonesia for a couple of years in a majority Christian area and has therefore become the latest expert on all things Muslim. No, your statement is inaccurate, and if I had more time I could "nuance" this one for you a bit. *Except the part about "EAT a dog" is or should be true.​

I could go on and on. I understand both sides of the issue and respect both sides.

The main point I'm bringing up it's not up to us expats to decide and I'm not sure it's right for Jakarta to impose a law here that doesnt have the support of the local area . .

For the millionth time (!) no one has said that it is "up to us, the expats, to decide". THE INDONESIAN MINISTRY OF ... oh, forget it, I give up.

By the way, this was your initial post in the thread, which you seem to have forgotten:

{Quote]Just hope this is really going to happen. I realize it wont stop the trade but would curtail it for sure. There are police here that would be happy to enforce it as long as their commanders are on board. If nothing else it will stop the trade in the main market here in tomohon which is well known around the world as a extreme market place. [/quote]

I was lured into thinking you were a strong animal welfare advocate, and a supporter of this initiative, like myself, mostly because you, well, said so. I'm not sure how to characterize the difference between your first post and your second one with out being called a "namecaller", so ...

You also made a statement above which sounds more than a bit like one made by a certain "President" not long ago:

"There were good people on both sides ... both sides were right, both sides were wrong ..."

 

[atlantis]

I am fine with other people doing what they want to do, up to a point. If what they like to do involves bashing dogs in the side of the head with heavy sticks or iron bars, electrocuting them, boiling them alive, cooking them with welding torches while they are still alive, et cetera, then yes I will have something to say about it.

May I kindly ask you if you have seen that happening in Indonesia or you just peddle what you have read about the dog meat trade here?

I have seen quite a few dogs put to death in the Minahasa and can tell you that all Minahasan I know who would read you would wonder what you are on, including very certainly those who are against the dog meat trade if they live/have been living here. I would say that over 99% of the executions I have witnessed have been done with a single shot given with a long stick. Is it less humane than the slaughtering of an animal with a one stroke of a knife? It's not for me to say it. I wouldn't kill an animal, be it with a knife or be it with a club.

Even in Tomohon dogs which are sold alive and put to death after being chosen are done in a matter of seconds. They get the head of the cage and the dog is dead before you have time to realize it. It's graphic, but its fast. And again, I have witnessed it a few times and can't remember for the life of me having seen a dog being clubbed more than once.

Electrocuting dogs is unheard of here and cooking them with welding torches while they are still alive is just a damn lie you peddle without having witnessed it if you intend to say it is the norm. The torch is used to burn the fur and this is a process which is done when the dog is already dead. I have seen it being done pretty much EVERY night in the Pasar Bersehati in Manado for the past 5 or 6 years. An alive dog being burnt alive or electrocuted would without doubt having caught my attention.

What did you say just before to Steveandpenny by the way? Sounded like "And now ladies and gentlemen, I present PakAsamManis, a non-dog meat eater who has lived in Indonesia for a couple of years and never seen a dog being put to death but who has become the latest expert on dog cruelty and all the way dogs are put to death".

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

What irks me is that you go from one extreme; the absolute mistreatment of dogs (I've heard what Anglian mentioned before), to the complete and outright banning of it, without taking into consideration that for some people eating that meat has been a way of life for whatever reason for many generations.

Not .... just ... ME. The INDONESIAN NATIONAL MINISTRY OF ... I am simply saying that I SUPPORT the INDONESIAN ... .... .... GEEZ, I really fudging quit on this: head, brick wall, head, brick wall ... headache ...

Although there probably is no "humane" way to slaughter animals, there must be a middle way to be able to allow these minorities to continue their traditions while regulating the slaughter in a way that is deemed "acceptable" just like it is done for chickens, cows, pigs and whatever else.

Yes, they could follow the example of halal slaughter and pretreatment of animals to be consumed as food (without saying our special "mumbo jumbo"). If they wanted to. they could probably have dont this already, or figured out how to do it on their own, don'tcha think? That was easy, wasn't it?

The hard part is this: That ain't the way they do it, and they ain't gonna start doing it that way, without somebody (like, the INDONESIAN NATIONAL GOVERNMENT, telling them they cannot do it the way they have been, and backing that up with STRONG ENFORCEMENT, eg, TELLING THEM WHAT TO DO ....


* P A M collapses in a sweaty heap *

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

I have seen quite a few dogs put to death in the Minahasa

And again, I have witnessed it a few times and can't remember for the life of me having seen a dog being clubbed more than once.


. I have seen it being done pretty much EVERY night in the Pasar Bersehati in Manado for the past 5 or 6 years.

Nice that you have found some form of entertainment there in Manado. Really, you disgust me. Have a nice day.

 

[atlantis]

Jeez... give us a break with your Indonesian government this, Indonesian Government that, Pak Asam manis. Your link says that "at a meeting on veterinary public health held by Indonesia’s Ministry of Agriculture, officials confirmed their intention to support a ban on the trade in dog meat and to deny veterinary certification for dog meat."
Basically "officials" have declared they support a ban on trade meat. Are they DPRs those people? Has it been debated in the DPR? Voted?
Have you read anything in the local medias such as Kompas concerning a soon to happen ban on the dog meat trade or are you just peddling your article of humanesociety.org without having verified how serious your source is?
How many declaration of this type by "officials" never become laws?

 

[Euc-]

It’s a blog on some peta website that claims some officials have said they’d support a ban, for all we know that official is a secretary, that hardly constitutes a directive by the Indonesian government. Is this blog collaborated anywhere by official government writing?

You say you support the ban, that’s what I’m indicating. You could also say you support an alternative way, but you didn’t, you personally want an outright ban.

Feel free to hit thay wall extra hard, seems you’ve got a lot of boiled up frustration to let out.

 

[atlantis]

Nice that you have found some form of entertainment there in Manado. Really, you disgust me. Have a nice day.

Love ya.

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

It’s a blog on some peta website that claims some officials have said they’d support a ban, for all we know that official is a secretary, that hardly constitutes a directive by the Indonesian government. Is this blog collaborated anywhere by official government writing?

You say you support the ban, that’s what I’m indicating. You could also say you support an alternative way, but you didn’t, you personally want an outright ban.

Feel free to hit thay wall extra hard, seems you’ve got a lot of boiled up frustration to let out.

https://www.smh.com.au/environment/...t-trade-in-surprise-move-20180806-p4zvqk.html

At an extraordinary meeting between Indonesia’s Ministry of Agriculture and the Dog Meat Free Indonesia coalition, government officials announced they would support a ban on the trade in, and deny veterinary certification for, dog and cat meat.

Leading veterinary public officials - including Dr Syamsul Ma’arif, Dr Hastho Yuliadi, Dr Yadi Cahyadi and Dr Wiwiek Bagj - confirmed the dog-meat trade was a serious public health threat, a significant animal welfare issue and a substantial problem for Indonesia’s growing tourism industry

The dog- and cat-meat trades currently operate in breach of existing Indonesian laws that are intended to safeguard public health and safety, as well as rules to protect animals from cruelty, the coalition said.

a few points:

1) These are Indonesian government officials, and they have spoken out in support of the ban, according to not just the INternational Humane Society, but reported by major news outlets such as SMH.

2) It does not have to be an active proposal or bill in Parliament , to mean that it has been proposed by members of the Indonesian national government, and for me to say that I am supporting an initiative by INDONESIANS to enact such a ban.

3) The fact that there are existing laws against animal cruelty, which have not been enforced, shows that those measures have been ineffective, which means stronger measures, laws and enforcement are needed (if anybody actually gives a shit about stopping animal cruelty, and some do).

Obviously, having laws on the books that say "You mustn't be cruel to animals" is not working. So, an actual enforced ban on the trade may be a better answer, and this is what (sorry!), the INDONESIAN GOVERNMENT officals have also agreed with.

4) I am fairly sure that the Dog Meat Free Indonesia coalition, made up of HSI, Four Paws, Jakarta Animal Aid Network, Animal Friends Jogja and Change for Animals Foundation, is not composed entirely of "nosy foreigners" but mostly Indonesians who are opposed to the dog and cat meat trade, AND animal cruelty in general.

So all this crap about "just busybody foreigners who want to stick their nose in" is basically bullshit, or at least it is from my perspective.

And my saying that I support an initiative by public officials in the Indonesian national government to implement a ban is entirely valid.

PS: "Euc", I believe you may be confusing the words "collaborating" and "corroborating".

 

[El_Goretto]

pssst, when everything is bold, nothing is bold.

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

So, if as atlantis has indicated, this city initiative or "agreement" of Tomohon will not be implemented "due to the failure of the petition drive", it means one of two things (to be fair, I don't know which);

1) the animal rights groups have misconstrued, or are lying about, the city government having already agreed to it, or

2) the City officals said to them one thing, but proved to be a chickenshit about actually doing anything

https://www.livekindly.co/indonesian-city-commits-to-ban-dog-and-cat-meat-trade/

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

pssst, when everything is bold, nothing is bold.

That was unintentional. I'll fix it, thanks. I'm tired.

I think about a 20 - 25% "bold" rate works for my purposes, when I feel the need to use it.

 

[Pak Asam Manis]