Cryptocurrencies

[Bad_azz]

...

With Bitcoins Ms BA seems to have gone in seeing it as an entertaining novelty and prepared to say goodbye to her outlay. My friend who responded with profanities at the critical article is in it to make money and seems convinced he is on a winner. He is buoyed up by his son who is in banking and sees it as a good investment... at least for now.

I am seeing it as a bit of fun & entertainment- I am also hoping to make money from a new ICO I have invested in.
However I have a new roof to put on the house & other renovations to get done with our little stash- so I cannot justify sinking a whole bunch of IDR into the CCs at this time- maybe in a month or two I can spare some more- as for trading etc I just don't have enough spare time to devote to following the markets fully enough to be on top of the game.

 

[Bad_azz]

I found this young chap on You Tube & I found what he has to say interesting:

Given that when he posted it 7th Aug 17, 1BTC was at about 3500$US
& I just had a quick look on currency converter & it is telling me $ 4570- 1 BTC

I might be tempted to pop a few more IDR into the CCs

 

[Bad_azz]

I saw my pennies drop a fair chunk today (at first I thought it was related to China saying they made ICOs illegal- but then I dug deeper to find that Bitcoin cannot be legal tender in China anyway- so I figured it cannot be that, but that might have acted as a catalyst? )
So I did a bit more digging around & this seems to be saying why


https://www.coindesk.com/crypto-market-sheds-billions-one-analyst-sees-buying-opportunity/

 

[Davita]

Re: post #83
Your link shows nothing new...and really nothing specific about cryptocurrency.
'Bait and Switch' and 'Bump and Dump'.... are strategies that have prevailed in all markets for eons...not much different to a guy at Shepherds Market yelling "Hurry! hurry! last two items at this price!"....when he has a suitcase-full behind him.
Some member previously said that cryptocurrency was based on supply and demand...if true that's no difference to any other investment except most other investments, per se, have some tangible assets...I don't see any tangible asset in a bitcoin.
For example...some years go I bought into the idea that hydrogen technology was the way out of gasoline engines for cars. There was even a mandate from the USA and Canadian govt's to create hydrogen filling stations from San Diego to Alaska..... but not one station has been built and thus my investment didn't produce the result I had expected..
However, the company I bought into is still in business and producing products using hydrogen technology.
I haven't made a killing, but cannot lose, because the company has tangible assets like buildings, machinery, transportion.... but most of all....patents!

 

[steveandpenny]

Re: post #83
Your link shows nothing new...and really nothing specific about cryptocurrency.
'Bait and Switch' and 'Bump and Dump'.... are strategies that have prevailed in all markets for eons...not much different to a guy at Shepherds Market yelling "Hurry! hurry! last two items at this price!"....when he has a suitcase-full behind him.
Some member previously said that cryptocurrency was based on supply and demand...if true that's no difference to any other investment except most other investments, per se, have some tangible assets...I don't see any tangible asset in a bitcoin.
For example...some years go I bought into the idea that hydrogen technology was the way out of gasoline engines for cars. There was even a mandate from the USA and Canadian govt's to create hydrogen filling stations from San Diego to Alaska..... but not one station has been built and thus my investment didn't produce the result I had expected..
However, the company I bought into is still in business and producing products using hydrogen technology.
I haven't made a killing, but cannot lose, because the company has tangible assets like buildings, machinery, transportion.... but most of all....patents!

Im not sure yet on bitcoin but seeing that the world's currencies are all based on faith and have no real value behind them but the word of the country that surrporrs it , I don't see much difference. It wasnt that long ago that the whole U.S. economy was just a hair width away from imploding. Not much has changed with the whole idea of too big to fail except that the same business are bigger now.
But here's another question has the bitcoin been affected by China move to make it illegal ? I think this will be a big test for it , to see if its stable enough to withstand this kind of pressure. I've also read that the U.S. is trying to put in regulations in place also.. It seems that the world currencies are concerned with bitcoin and that's a good thing.

 

[Davita]

Im not sure yet on bitcoin but seeing that the world's currencies are all based on faith and have no real value behind them but the word of the country that surrporrs it , I don't see much difference. It wasnt that long ago that the whole U.S. economy was just a hair width away from imploding. Not much has changed with the whole idea of too big to fail except that the same business are bigger now.
But here's another question has the bitcoin been affected by China move to make it illegal ? I think this will be a big test for it , to see if its stable enough to withstand this kind of pressure. I've also read that the U.S. is trying to put in regulations in place also.. It seems that the world currencies are concerned with bitcoin and that's a good thing.

Your post quotes mine so I feel I have a right to respond.
I highlighted because I don't agree. Since the demise of the gold standard of currency valuation where Fort Knox and the UK Royal Mint were presumed to hold the gold equivalent of ''we promise to pay' we have a floating valuation based on 'professional' actuaries. You are correct that those actuaries may be misguided. Witness Greece entering EU without verification of its established asset value. The asset value of any country is the difference between its assets, liability and future potential.
There is an article on bitcoin, and its potential and influence In Asia, in Jakpost yesterday 5 Sep. ..I read on my boring trip JKT-Bali yesterday so apologise I cannot link..

 

[Bad_azz]

I'm feeling very chuffed with my Golem CC- it has gone crazy in an upward direction- they must be nearing the opening up stages.

 

[Bad_azz]

Steve & Penny, Bitcoin has not been legal tender in China since 2013.
Though China says its citizens can trade Bitcoin as a commodity such as one would with shares- they just cannot spend it in shops /banks etc as a currency. They say that is to protect the ecoomic stability of China- yet we must remember China doesn't quite dance to the same tune as the rest of the world.
Re the ICO ban:
What happened this week was that China announced that it wanted to ban ICOs (a different thing to Bitcoin).
That means that any ICOs starting up in China cannot start & that ICOs who have sold to Chinese people have to refund...
However the talk is around how China is going to implement it-apparently it will be vast as there are more than 100 exchanges dealing- and from what I hear it will be a massive undertaking to police it... also questions around how they are going to protect their citizens from losing money on ICOs that have already hit the market coin sales-

For example- I say to you Hey, I have this great idea , will you buy in (invest in ICO tokens) before I take it to the open market. When I take it to market your token value is likely to go up greatly because it is a really good idea & people will definitely want a piece of the pie...
You buy in
the ICO goes to market & your investors token has gone up in value 100fold.... then along comes the govt saying
'oooops- we want to protect you our citizen" (the token buyer), so the company you bought from is banned from trading here in China & they have to refund your token at the price you paid for it.
That is the best of my understanding of it & to be fair the market took a dip- but here we are 3 days later & I have made 20% on what I had in my portfolio before the dip- so in reality it has been just a blip.

Now tell me how many Chinese people will find an alternative way of doing things- nip over to HK? Go underground in the dark web... the reality is trade will still continue just like people in China can still access Facebook & other banned things- people just find ways around things if they wish to.

I don't believe they have made buying into ICOs illegal ... but the general consensus is that the market was being flooded with them anyway so the breathing space didn't hurt.

I hope what I wrote makes some sense- as I said this is my understanding of it as a newbie- some old seasoned players might have a more eloquent & more insightful explanation.

 

[steveandpenny]

It makes total sense. And if forgein currencies weren't afraid of bit coin ( genetic term) succeeding I'd be afraid to invest in it.

 

[Davita]

Reading Jakpost yesterday 6 Sep (what else to do on a Lion Air flight with no booze) Business p10 has an informative article on cryptocurrency and its potential in the less developed countries. A couple of para's come to mind. I have the paper version but no longer subscribe to JP and cannot link the article.

"Whether this is a bubble, destined to collapse, or a sign of a more radical shift in the concept of money, the implications for central banking and financial stability will be profound."
"Moreover, while States has no role in managing cryptocurrencies, it will be responsible for cleaning up any mess left by the burst bubble."....
"In advanced economies with reserve currencies, central banks may be able to mitigate the damage. The same may not be true fro emerging economies."

 

[Bad_azz]

All finance is a bubble destined to collapse - at some point- because money is not a tangible thing. The rich are getting richer off the backs of the poor who are getting poorer.
If we could predict when the bubble will burst, well, then we could all be preppers & ready for it.
Decentralised currency will likely outlive the traditional institutions - because it is transparent & decentralised. It might not live on in all the CCs that we see out there, but GBP & French Francs are not what they used to be- adaptability is the name of the game for anything to survive.
I truly believe they are bricking it by naysaying, if the population of the planet started taking their cash out of banks & buying into CCs the banks would flounder- they have a lot to lose- and for such a long time have been offering really naff interest rates to investors, I have "made" more in a day from my 20 quid I had in golem than I would have made in a year with £200 in a bank.

 

[Davita]

From Wiki....The pound sterling is the world's oldest currency still in use. The origins of sterling lie in the reign of King Offa of Mercia (757–796).
Seems like it's been around for a while.

I'm happy for B_A that her investment is growing but question...given there isn't any product to eat, wear, drive or do anything with other than pray and look at ....how can this investment win without someone else losing?

 

[Bad_azz]

The Pound sterling may still retain the name but it decimalised 40 years ago or so.
& not that long ago it came close to being ditched for Euro.

As for product I guess it depends on how you define product- GoJek has no product, Air B& B has no product... Uber has no product...
There are some who firmly believe that cryptocurrencies are better for the health of the planet, because they are greener & cleaner- no need for institutions to house them, no need for resources to print/create them (or at least on a minute scale compared to hard cash) & for the most part they are not raping the planet for minerals to trade.

Anyway, I am not here to defend them, merely to discuss & learn about them & Davita makes points that I had initially considered before buying in.
The world is changing & we are the dinosaurs.
My 16 yr old nephew informed me that he intends to buy CCs & I think it is a young person's product- their reasoning, we live in a virtual/digital world now & why not have a currency that reflects that- today's banking merely involves moving digital numbers online- so why not CCs?

 

[steveandpenny]

And let's not forget Amazon, one of the biggest companies in the world that owns nothing but a few shipping locations. Or eBay that doesn't even own those. I was like Davita thinking a person would have to be crazy to invest in something like that , that has no real assets. Boy am I stupid.

It's a changing world and you must change with it or be a part owner in a buggy whip company.

I still know people that think online banking is a scam, and don't trust it, people like my mother and older sister. Its sad but true.

 

[Davita]

And let's not forget Amazon, one of the biggest companies in the world that owns nothing but a few shipping locations. Or eBay that doesn't even own those. I was like Davita thinking a person would have to be crazy to invest in something like that , that has no real assets. Boy am I stupid.

It's a changing world and you must change with it or be a part owner in a buggy whip company.

I still know people that think online banking is a scam, and don't trust it, people like my mother and older sister. Its sad but true.

Amazon owns half of the buildings in the revamped Chandlers Cove area downtown Seattle and now building in Staten Island, New York...
https://venturebeat.com/2017/09/07/...-wants-local-governments-to-submit-proposals/
"Seattle is a longtime hub for at least two major U.S. technology companies — Microsoft and Amazon — but the latter is clearly outgrowing its home, which is spread across 33 buildings in the city."

I've invested in Companies like Microsoft and Amazon thru' mutual funds and other financial services as they are listed public companies and therefore have disclosed assets....and I use Paypal (an ebay Co.).
I have no investments in Go-Jek, Uber or Air BnB because they are private and their product is an APP. which I have no interest in purchasing. I hope no-one here invested in Uber.... 'coz that might be disappointing.....FP about Uber...
"I’m not rushing into the many offers that have come my way to participate in Uber financings, smart money notwithstanding. A company whose business model relies on sweeping changes to a legal system that has evolved over decades and become entrenched worldwide does not, in my opinion, a sound investment make."

Online banking is a recognised procedure. I do banking on three continents on-line. My main GBP bank is in the Channel Islands where I set-up an account in 1974 when I left UK ...but I've never been to the Channel Islands.
IMO....trying to create the analogy that cryptocurrecy trading and general banking internet use is somehow only for tech-savvy is a mistake....they are different. I agree that some people need to upgrade out of the cheque book/savings book/cash era but its only a process....paying all our bills using an internet transaction will eventually happen.

If and when CC's become legal tender I'll review my portfolio....but probably don't have enough time left....

 

[Bad_azz]

The portfolio has taken a dive today - seems the market is nervous about some rumour that China will be banning exchanges ... & from what I read there is only a rumour from a mis-translated comment.
It will be interesting to see how this pans out... I might just buy a few more quidsworth if the price drops another 5%

& that's why I haven't sunk my life savings into this- quite the rollercoaster ride - exhilarating watching it all.

 

[steveandpenny]

Well China will stop all trade of bit coin starting Oct. Even though this brought on a sharp devalue of it , it bounce back to almost the same value in just a few days. It seems even though China not so long ago was a major player in bit coin it seem that U.S , the U.k. , Singapore and the Swiss have made big moves into the bit coin market taking over the lion share of trading. Seem crazy that those are 4 of the biggest banking markets in the world. Also read a article in tech crunch talking about pay pal and Apple pay talking about excepting bit coins in payment.

 

[Davita]

Recent comment by CEO of JP Morgan...
https://hothardware.com/news/jpmorgan-ceo-slams-bitcoin-cryptocurrency

 

[Bad_azz]

Davita,I read that a few days ago, made me laugh. It is pretty obvious why JP Morgan would say what he said.
*sarcasm mode on* >> he's hardly biased against digital currency.

He is an OLD man, firmly entrenched in the OLD way of doing things, not to mention what he/his industry stands to lose.

posting such as that is akin to saying Fox "news" made a racial slur.

Yet if I recall correctly he is interested in the blockchain technology.

 

[Davita]

He is an OLD man, firmly entrenched in the OLD way of doing things, not to mention what he/his industry stands to lose.
Yet if I recall correctly he is interested in the blockchain technology.

Doesn't your second sentence kinda contradict your first?

BTW maybe being 'firmly entrenched in the OLD way of doing things' isn't a bad thing.....(USA today) "JPMorgan CEO gets 35% pay raise to $27M amid cutbacks."....Wish I were so entrenched...and I am an OLD man...

In late May I sold JP Morgan Mutual Funds which I bought for GBP7,000 some 10 years ago and I received GBP117,143...and I'm pissed because, if sold yesterday, I would have received GBP123,275.......greedy me!