Indonesia set to introduce strict new law banning sex outside of marriage

[Helpful Herbert]

So all of those countries have it in theory and many of them have it in practice as well (whether officially or unofficially).

 

[Hawk256]

So all of those countries have it in theory and many of them have it in practice as well (whether officially or unofficially).

I wouldn't say many have it in practice. More like a few and most of them are in areas not controlled by the government. And as stated earlier if they follow the rules exactly, you need 2 men or 4 women to have witnessed the "crime". What are the odds of that? Seeing them enter into the same room isn't enough, you would have to see actual intercourse.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Getting people to say they have witnessed a crime is very easy if they have the right incentive. It's not like they're required to provide any proper evidence like photos or something.

 

[pantaiema]

And practically none of them actually use it as punishment.

Really ?? See below just in one country alone, in Iran for instance
Here is a documented, evidence-based overview of confirmed stoning-to-death cases in Iran from the 1980s through the early 2000s, based on human-rights reporting and contemporary sources.

"Since the inception of the mullahs’ rule, hundreds of women of various ages have been and continue to be stoned to death throughout Iran"

Repression on women reached alarming level in Iran

In today’s Iran, clerics, who are at the administration of that country, are considering rights of women as counter to their so-called Islamic revolution. They are doing everything in suppressing the voice of women and continuing to repress them in various ways and means. This is the third instal

www.ifmat.org

Iran: Death by stoning, a grotesque and unacceptable penalty

As nine women and two men in Iran wait to be stoned to death, Amnesty International today called on the Iranian authorities to abolish death by stoning and impose an immediate moratorium on this horrific practice, specifically designed to increase the suffering of the victims. In a new report...

www.amnesty.org

 

[pantaiema]

What have they stoned anyone for?
Thanks for the usual alarmist propaganda.

Huh, This is a matter of fact, not propaganda.

Aceh has implemented Shariah law, and within Shariah, stoning to death exists as a form of punishment. The fact that no one has been stoned so far does not guarantee that it will never happen.

Recall the discussion about the premarital sex and cohabitation law. In this forum, it was first debated around October 2022, when a few people were so confident (See attached below) such a law would never be enacted. Just a few months later, 'boooom' in late December 2022, the law was passed and the socialisation process began. But 'Boom boom' is widely known in Thailand

After being proven wrong, instead of acknowledging their mistake, the discussion was shifted toward technicalities, such as the conditions under which the law would be triggered (for example reports must come from family members, spouses, children, or parents). Yes it is more difficult but see post #275 why this law is problematic.

One should not be overly confident that something will never happen. As long as there is grass roots support, political parties willing to use the issue to gain votes, and boarding schools that continue to indoctrinate children, it will not be a distance the possibility. If the wheel doesn’t stop rolling, it will get to its destination, no matter the speed. Oh, I love it when this trio (Hw, Bo, PT) gets together, singing in the choir like they often do when people are talking about religious extremism in Indonesia.

Additionally, throughout Indonesia’s history, there have been several attempts some resembling coup d'etat to alter the constitution in order to make the nationwide application of shariah law easier. I have shared links about these attempts before.

Here is the summary, available in this thread

'Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia' Rallies for Its Caliphate

Here is an interesting article (with pdf download) regarding Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia and its demands for an Islamic caliphate in Indonesia.

www.expatindo.org

'In the modern era, like the title of this thread, the groups like Hizb ut-Tahrir Indonesia (HTI) and remnants of Jemaah Islamiyah have openly called for the re-establishment of a caliphate and their ideas continue to circulate online, in religious schools, and among disillusioned youth. Aceh is a done deal. Other proponent of Caliphate (khilafah) is Majelis Mujahidin Indonesia (MMI), Jamaah Ansharut Daulah (JAD). In the past FPI, DI/TII, The Darul Islam/Indonesian Islamic Army Rebellion. Piagam Jakarta (Jakarta Charter). There have been a systematic attempt to change the constitution (UUD45) and reshape Indonesian the Indonesia’s foundational ideological symbols (Garuda Pancasila) (Post #21, #22, #27). There was an old and a relatively recent poll indicates that significant number of Indonesians support Sharia law (Post#4, #9, #34). These are all facts, not personal opinion. Typically facts should be met with facts, not personal opinion.'

 

[Wisnu]

So they are stoning people to death now in Aceh? Could you please enlighten us about the laws governing this practice and the cases where it has occurred?

here is the law,

https://dsi.acehprov.go.id/media/2023.07/qanun_aceh_nomor_6_tahun_2014_tentang_hukum_jinayat1.pdf

Qanun Jinayah Aceh 2014.
see articles 33 - 38, no stoning to death.

 

[harryopal1]

When it comes to the need for evidence I am reminded that in Australia until the Whitlam government reforms of 1972 there were many private detectives made a quid sneaking around with cameras and popping up to catch adulterers in action. Divorce usually followed but no actual stonings.

 

[centurion]

here is the law,

https://dsi.acehprov.go.id/media/2023.07/qanun_aceh_nomor_6_tahun_2014_tentang_hukum_jinayat1.pdf

Qanun Jinayah Aceh 2014.
see articles 33 - 38, no stoning to death.

This is confirming, basically, that the Aceh government is kind of liberal-Islam, progressive oriented, as no stoning in the law. Or maybe they are just bounded with the Indonesian state and laws, so they cannot fantasize too much.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Considering all the ganja they grow in Aceh, I'm thinking there should be more emphasis on people getting stoned

 

[Bob]

Huh, This is a matter of fact, not propaganda.

Aceh has implemented Shariah law, and within Shariah, stoning to death exists as a form of punishment. The fact that no one has been stoned so far does not guarantee that it will never happen.

Recall the discussion about the premarital sex and cohabitation law. In this forum, it was first debated around October 2022, when a few people were so confident (See attached below) such a law would never be enacted. Just a few months later, 'boooom' in late December 2022, the law was passed and the socialisation process began. But 'Boom boom' is widely known in Thailand

After being proven wrong, instead of acknowledging their mistake, the discussion was shifted toward technicalities, such as the conditions under which the law would be triggered (for example reports must come from family members, spouses, children, or parents). Yes it is more difficult but see post #275 why this law is problematic.

One should not be overly confident that something will never happen. As long as there is grass roots support, political parties willing to use the issue to gain votes, and boarding schools that continue to indoctrinate children, it will not be a distance the possibility. If the wheel doesn’t stop rolling, it will get to its destination, no matter the speed. Oh, I love it when this trio (Hw, Bo, PT) gets together, singing in the choir like they often do when people are talking about religious extremism in Indonesia.

Additionally, throughout Indonesia’s history, there have been several attempts some resembling coup d'etat to alter the constitution in order to make the nationwide application of shariah law easier. I have shared links about these attempts before.

Here is the summary, available in this thread

'Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia' Rallies for Its Caliphate

Here is an interesting article (with pdf download) regarding Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia and its demands for an Islamic caliphate in Indonesia.

www.expatindo.org

'In the modern era, like the title of this thread, the groups like Hizb ut-Tahrir Indonesia (HTI) and remnants of Jemaah Islamiyah have openly called for the re-establishment of a caliphate and their ideas continue to circulate online, in religious schools, and among disillusioned youth. Aceh is a done deal. Other proponent of Caliphate (khilafah) is Majelis Mujahidin Indonesia (MMI), Jamaah Ansharut Daulah (JAD). In the past FPI, DI/TII, The Darul Islam/Indonesian Islamic Army Rebellion. Piagam Jakarta (Jakarta Charter). There have been a systematic attempt to change the constitution (UUD45) and reshape Indonesian the Indonesia’s foundational ideological symbols (Garuda Pancasila) (Post #21, #22, #27). There was an old and a relatively recent poll indicates that significant number of Indonesians support Sharia law (Post#4, #9, #34). These are all facts, not personal opinion. Typically facts should be met with facts, not personal opinion.'

It’s alarmist, fearmongering, unrealistic, propaganda, whatever you want to call it but it’s not a realistic or well reasoned presentation of the law and its potential effects or the possibility of eventual sharia law in provinces other than Aceh.
What’s that “Aceh’s a done deal” mean regarding a caliphate?

 

[Pak Tani]

After being proven wrong, instead of acknowledging their mistake...

Why don't you just admit that you were wrong when you said that someone can be stoned to death for adultery in Aceh?

 

[Hawk256]

Really ?? See below just in one country alone, in Iran for instance
Here is a documented, evidence-based overview of confirmed stoning-to-death cases in Iran from the 1980s through the early 2000s, based on human-rights reporting and contemporary sources.

I said I wan't going to get into with you again but you are talking about 20 and 30 years ago, not today. You are giving out old information as if it were still relevent.

 

[centurion]

I said I wan't going to get into with you again but you are talking about 20 and 30 years ago, not today. You are giving out old information as if it were still relevent.

ISIL was doing stoning in Syria more recently.

 

[Balifrog]

Getting stoned is already illegal, yes? Seems like double jeopardy.

Depends on the local legal system...
Or do you think the US law rules the world ?
Getting stoned is in the law in Iran or Saudi Arabia...
Their country, their rules...

 

[Hawk256]

ISIL was doing stoning in Syria more recently.

A very extremist group and still a drop in the bucket from all the names that pantaieme gave. Outside of the governments reach people will do what they want. You can't lump all Muslims in the same group.

 

[pantaiema]

I said I wan't going to get into with you again but you are talking about 20 and 30 years ago, not today. You are giving out old information as if it were still relevent.

Oh, I see. What about ISIS-controlled areas in Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan, was that 20–30 years ago? Do the earlier posts even specify a time frame?

And what about this ?

Well, None of them? Really? What about Post #304 and then pulling the same stunt twice in more recent cases like Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan?

 

[pantaiema]

A very extremist group and still a drop in the bucket from all the names that pantaiema gave. Outside of the governments reach people will do what they want. You can lump all Muslims in the same group.

One should never be overly confident or dismiss the possibility that something could happen in the future. The cohabitation and premarital sex laws are a clear example of this.

There have also been past movements that even attempted a coup d’état to replace the constitution (see Post #305 and the linked thread: https://www.expatindo.org/community/threads/hizbut-tahrir-indonesia-rallies-for-its-caliphate.8053/).

As long as there is grassroots support, relatively large political parties willing to exploit the issue for electoral gain, and the continued indoctrination of children in religious boarding schools, the movement will persist. If the wheel continues to turn, it will eventually reach its destination, no matter how slowly it moves.

 

[centurion]

A very extremist group and still a drop in the bucket from all the names that pantaieme gave. Outside of the governments reach people will do what they want. You can lump all Muslims in the same group.

ISIL had a territory, army, taxation, judicary, effectively a state-altough not recognized.

 

[pantaiema]

ISIL had a territory, army, taxation, judicary, effectively a state-altough not recognized.

Under Indonesian citizenship law, an Indonesian citizen cannot be rendered stateless.
But the Indonesians who joined to fight with ISIS/ISIL have had their citizenship revoked. Why? Because the Indonesian government contends that ISIS/ISIL functions as a state and that these individuals voluntarily chose to become citizens of that entity.

 

[Hawk256]

Oh, I see. What about ISIS-controlled areas in Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan, was that 20–30 years ago? Do the earlier posts even specify a time frame?

And what about this ?
View attachment 5346
Well, None of them? Really? What about Post #304 and then pulling the same stunt twice in more recent cases like Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan?

ISIS is not a government, The cartels do what they want in Mexico but that doesn't make them the government. Apples and oranges. That's it. I'm done with this. You use scare tactics to lump all Muslims into one dangerous group because of the actions of a few outliers.