Earthquakes and nuclear power plants

[Brian86]

Borneo / Kalimantan is very safe from natural disasters. If Singapore can get its power from solar farms in Australia, I'm sure Indonesia can figure out some cables under the Java Sea.

But I suspect Indonesia will not get nuclear power until the safe* reactors are commercially produced.

* Ones that fault to a safe state instead of meltdown, such as molten salt reactors; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-salt_reactor

 

[Balifrog]

Borneo / Kalimantan is very safe from natural disasters. If Singapore can get its power from solar farms in Australia, I'm sure Indonesia can figure out some cables under the Java Sea.

But I suspect Indonesia will not get nuclear power until the safe* reactors are commercially produced.

* Ones that fault to a safe state instead of meltdown, such as molten salt reactors; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-salt_reactor

It's one of the reasons Kalimantan was chosen for the new capital.
Concerning SGP getting elec power from Australia's sun, I think there was an extension planned to Indonesia but it was abandonned.
Can't remember the exact circumstances...something to look up today !

 

[fastpitch17]

How about all the good things that came from nuclear research? Do you want all those to go away as well? No body imaging of any kind. The only answer is exploratory surgery? No advanced cancer treatments? The list goes on and on and I'm here to spoon feed all the benefits to everyone when a simple search will show you all the positive things that have been brought about because of nuclear research. Governments will try to turn anything into a weapon and so far a nuclear bomb is at the top of the list but I wouldn't count on it being there forever. Every new discovery is a possible new weapon.

Did not the nuclear bomb precede nuclear energy plants? Didn't the research driven by the development within it's program lead to all the nuclear developments across the scientific world that came after?

 

[Shadrach]

Borneo / Kalimantan is very safe from natural disasters. If Singapore can get its power from solar farms in Australia, I'm sure Indonesia can figure out some cables under the Java Sea.

But I suspect Indonesia will not get nuclear power until the safe* reactors are commercially produced.

* Ones that fault to a safe state instead of meltdown, such as molten salt reactors; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-salt_reactor

I would be Highly skeptical of any so called Safe Nuclear reactor! Actually, I wouldn't believe it at All!

 

[Shadrach]

How about all the good things that came from nuclear research? Do you want all those to go away as well? No body imaging of any kind. The only answer is exploratory surgery? No advanced cancer treatments? The list goes on and on and I'm here to spoon feed all the benefits to everyone when a simple search will show you all the positive things that have been brought about because of nuclear research. Governments will try to turn anything into a weapon and so far a nuclear bomb is at the top of the list but I wouldn't count on it being there forever. Every new discovery is a possible new weapon.

This is a good point! But I am still skeptical of using it. Are there are scientific facts about by using it, people have gotten sick from the therapy, and Died? This is a very difficult subject for me to think about. A part of me wants to believe in the medical benefits of using it for this purpose, and a part of me that is Terrified of using it! The part about it being extremely deadly for thousands of years, scares the Hell out of me!
What you said about the Government turning anything into a weapon is Extremely depressing! Why does it have to be this Way? Why not, they turn everything into a life saving thing?

 

[harryopal1]

How about all the good things that came from nuclear research? Do you want all those to go away as well? No body imaging of any kind. The only answer is exploratory surgery? No advanced cancer treatments? The list goes on and on and I'm here to spoon feed all the benefits to everyone when a simple search will show you all the positive things that have been brought about because of nuclear research. Governments will try to turn anything into a weapon and so far a nuclear bomb is at the top

There is a huge difference between a nuclear power plant designed to produce power and the Lucas Heights plant in Australia which is designed to optimize for isotope production and research. A power plant designed to produce electricity involves larger reactors, cooling systems and have significant issues relating to waste management. The difference is like comparing a specialized laboratory instrument to a large industrial power plant.

In Australia the public is generally unpersuaded that the advantages of energy producing nuclear plants are not too expensive and potentially too dangerous.

 

[pantaiema]

A key argument in favour of nuclear power is its ability to provide a reliable, low carbon energy source that reduces reliance on fossil fuels. While renewable energy sources like wind, solar, hydro, and geothermal are expanding, they still struggle to match the capacity and reliability of nuclear power, particularly in efforts to achieve net-zero greenhouse gas emissions.

Another important consideration is minimising dependency on foreign electricity supplies. For example, the UK imports about 10% of its electricity from France. In a potential conflict, France could cut off power exports to the UK, causing major disruptions, including impacts on industrial production and defence related energy needs.

To address these problem, the UK has committed to increasing investments in nuclear energy as part of its broader strategy for energy security, decarbonisation, and economic growth.

To be used as weapon, nuclear serves as a means of 'nuclear deterrence',

 

[Shadrach]

A key argument in favour of nuclear power is its ability to provide a reliable, low carbon energy source that reduces reliance on fossil fuels. While renewable energy sources like wind, solar, hydro, and geothermal are expanding, they still struggle to match the capacity and reliability of nuclear power, particularly in efforts to achieve net-zero greenhouse gas emissions.

Another important consideration is minimising dependency on foreign electricity supplies. For example, the UK imports about 10% of its electricity from France. In a potential conflict, France could cut off power exports to the UK, causing major disruptions, including impacts on industrial production and defence related energy needs.

To address these problem, the UK has committed to increasing investments in nuclear energy as part of its broader strategy for energy security, decarbonisation, and economic growth.

To be used as weapon nuclear option, it serves as a means of 'nuclear deterrence',

Just wait until one of these plants Meltdown in these small countries! The people are going to cry in their Wine and Beer, and say How can this be? The Scientist promised us, this wouldn't Happen! but Hey, you're right, it's much less of a carbon Footprint! Oh yea, Everything will be covered with Nuclear fallout, But look at the Bright Side! There will be net zero Greenhouse Gas Emissions! ‍

 

[John indonesia]

Japan has a long history of earthquakes but is well prepared.

Note : Calling the Japanese positively moronic is uncalled for ...

They weren't prepared - we can see that because the place was hit by a tsunami that contaminated pretty much everything.
Perhaps 'moronic' was a shade harsh, so I will go with idiotic.

 

[fastpitch17]

They weren't prepared - we can see that because the place was hit by a tsunami that contaminated pretty much everything.
Perhaps 'moronic' was a shade harsh, so I will go with idiotic.

I could have sworn this discussions was about nuclear power and earthquakes. Now it took a turn to nuclear power and tsunamis. I do believe and know from living in Japan for 2 years that earthquakes are a regular occurrence, not so much tsunamis. Boats are built to float on water just like nuclear power plants in Japan are built to withstand earthquakes. Add a rare abnormality like a tsunami and the boats don't do well.

So, we should just eliminate boats in case something rare happens. What size tsunami should be considered when constructing a nuclear plant. Krakatoa's last blow was 100 meters that hit Lampung. Yes, Japan had a disaster with a nuclear power plant but it wasn't from the earthquake, it was from a rare tsunami that triggered a series of failures within the system. Could of Japan have planned for it? Probably not since it is a complete unknown and never expected. Did they learn from it? It's Japan. One given is they learn quickly and put the wheels of fixing the problem full speed ahead

Indonesia can plan for tsunamis just as soon as Johnny Appleseed tells them exactly where one is going to come ashore besides Aceh and maybe Lampung after Baby Krakatoa keeps growing a few more decades.

 

[harryopal1]

I could have sworn this discussions was about nuclear power and earthquakes. Now it took a turn to nuclear power and tsunamis. I do believe and know from living in Japan for 2 years that earthquakes are a regular occurrence, not so much tsunamis. Boats are built to float on water just like nuclear power plants in Japan are built to withstand earthquakes. Add a rare abnormality like a tsunami and the boats don't do well.

So, we should just eliminate boats in case something rare happens. What size tsunami should be considered when constructing a nuclear plant. Krakatoa's last blow was 100 meters that hit Lampung. Yes, Japan had a disaster with a nuclear power plant but it wasn't from the earthquake, it was from a rare tsunami that triggered a series of failures within the system. Could of Japan have planned for it? Probably not since it is a complete unknown and never expected. Did they learn from it? It's Japan. One given is they learn quickly and put the wheels of fixing the problem full speed ahead

Indonesia can plan for tsunamis just as soon as Johnny Appleseed tells them exactly where one is going to come ashore besides Aceh and maybe Lampung after Baby Krakatoa keeps growing a few more decades.

The nervous ones amongst us will remember that Chernobyl was caused neither by earthquake or tsunami but more to do with our infinite capacity to bugger things up. Personally I don't have enough faith with management of nuclear reactors anywhere let alone with the added peril of earthquakes. As in the film Dr Strangelove, the US airforce American General tried to explain to Peter Sellers when US planes were about to drop atomic bombs on Moscow due to a stuff up, "Gee Mr President, I wouldn't condemn the whole program because of just one mistake."

 

[Balifrog]

The nervous ones amongst us will remember that Chernobyl was caused neither by earthquake or tsunami but more to do with our infinite capacity to bugger things up. Personally I don't have enough faith with management of nuclear reactors anywhere let alone with the added peril of earthquakes. As in the film Dr Strangelove, the US airforce American General tried to explain to Peter Sellers when US planes were about to drop atomic bombs on Moscow due to a stuff up, "Gee Mr President, I wouldn't condemn the whole program because of just one mistake."

There were quite a few "mishaps" ....

List of military nuclear accidents - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[harryopal1]

There were quite a few "mishaps" ....

List of military nuclear accidents - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

What an exhausting list of "mishaps". You can almost hear the various authorities saying, "Nothing to worry about folks. Everything is under control."

A couple of standouts for me are the 1957 Rocky Flat Plant's fire release of nuclear materials.

".... In the aftermath, Department of Energy officials, and the Dow Chemical officials who ran the facility, did not admit the extent of the catastrophe, or the radiation danger, to local officials or the media. Knowledge of the extent of the damage and contamination was kept from the public for years."

And the 1957 Sellafield UK reactor core fire and a Medical Research Council committee declared that it was unlikely that there was any harm caused to any humans. Only to have further research in 2007 sugges that it was likley there were 100 to 240 cancer deaths related to the fire.

So who has complete trust in scientists and government officials?

 

[Hawk256]

What an exhausting list of "mishaps". You can almost hear the various authorities saying, "Nothing to worry about folks. Everything is under control."

A couple of standouts for me are the 1957 Rocky Flat Plant's fire release of nuclear materials.

".... In the aftermath, Department of Energy officials, and the Dow Chemical officials who ran the facility, did not admit the extent of the catastrophe, or the radiation danger, to local officials or the media. Knowledge of the extent of the damage and contamination was kept from the public for years."

And the 1957 Sellafield UK reactor core fire and a Medical Research Council committee declared that it was unlikely that there was any harm caused to any humans. Only to have further research in 2007 sugges that it was likley there were 100 to 240 cancer deaths related to the fire.

So who has complete trust in scientists and government officials?
View attachment 4759

Build you a fallout shelter, solar and wind power with generator and stock with everything you need for the next 20 years or so and then you don't have to trust anyone.

 

[Shadrach]

Build you a fallout shelter, solar and wind power with generator and stock with everything you need for the next 20 years or so and then you don't have to trust anyone.

A better idea is just don't use Fission Nuclear Energy! Isn't there a Fusion Nuclear Energy that not Dangerous? To be distrustful of everyone is not the way it's supposed to be! Why not people have the idea, that all things created by Man, should be safe, and for the betterment of the Planet, and all the inhabitants?
To think they had Nuclear Energy in 1957 is really scary! Most people only had AM radio's then. And if they had a Television, it was still Black, and White. And Plastic was just beginning to be commercialized! Gasoline then was only $0.25 a gallon! Or less!

 

[fastpitch17]

Build you a fallout shelter, solar and wind power with generator and stock with everything you need for the next 20 years or so and then you don't have to trust anyone.

I don't understand a nation that is full of active volcanoes doesn't key on tapping them for thermo power. That has to be a lot of places hotter than you know what not too far under foot. Areas around the vast shores have pretty much constant wind along with the higher elevations for wind produced power. Sunlight isn't a year round given with a rainy season and many times a wet dry season. I still believe with all the trash generated here, more should be done to turn anything that burns into electricity. Cheaper than oil and gets rid of land fills.

 

[Shadrach]

I don't understand a nation that is full of active volcanoes doesn't key on tapping them for thermo power. That has to be a lot of places hotter than you know what not too far under foot. Areas around the vast shores have pretty much constant wind along with the higher elevations for wind produced power. Sunlight isn't a year round given with a rainy season and many times a wet dry season. I still believe with all the trash generated here, more should be done to turn anything that burns into electricity. Cheaper than oil and gets rid of land fills.

Definitely a plus on using Geothermal energy! Remember years ago, when the they tapped into the Mud reservoir? They tried and tried to plug it but I don't think they could? Does anyone know what happened? You're also right about constant wind. It doesn't produce much, but hey, it's a constant free source of energy.
In California now, they are providing free Battery storage for homes with Solar panels! They are providing free charging stations, plus $, for anyone with an electric vehicle! This is so Great! It will save the State money in the Long Run! It would be great if Indonesia would do this. There is plenty of Sunshine, and the new Solar panels, produce power even when it's cloudy!
My friend is taking advantage of this offer, because California is a very expensive place to live, and they pay a lot of State taxes to live there.
We think the best thing to do now is for California, Oregon, and Washington State, to succeed from America and become a part of Canada!

 

[Balifrog]

A bit of history....

'We thought it was the end of the world': How the US dropped four nuclear bombs on Spain in 1966

After two planes collided, three hydrogen bombs hit a Spanish village, and one fell into the sea nearby. Two years later, villagers talked to the BBC about the terrifying accident.

www.bbc.com

 

[harryopal1]

A bit of history....

'We thought it was the end of the world': How the US dropped four nuclear bombs on Spain in 1966

After two planes collided, three hydrogen bombs hit a Spanish village, and one fell into the sea nearby. Two years later, villagers talked to the BBC about the terrifying accident.

www.bbc.com

There is a smidgeon of comfort that the nuclear capable US bombers which still patrol the skies do not carry nuclear bombs. However US submarines patrolling the seas do carry nuclear weapons with a total estimated capacity of 700 nuclear warheads.
Worldwide, this century there are 30 known accidents involving submarines. Most of these were nuclear powered and some armed with nuclear weapons. There may be other accidents that have not been reported.
It all seems a bit like a madhouse where patients were allowed to have personal machetes until one patient on the second floor ran amok and then machetes were banned on the second floor. Meanwhile, patients on the lower floor still have machetes.
Ahh well... mimpi manis.
(Incidentally, that BBC Watch system has an amazing availability of videos across so many fascinating topics.)

 

[fastpitch17]

A bit of history....

'We thought it was the end of the world': How the US dropped four nuclear bombs on Spain in 1966

After two planes collided, three hydrogen bombs hit a Spanish village, and one fell into the sea nearby. Two years later, villagers talked to the BBC about the terrifying accident.

www.bbc.com

A few years after the accident I worked with a couple of the airmen assigned to identifying the hazardous material areas. They were as I would have been on another accident the guys with the geiger counters. There wasn't really any excitement from those knowing what happened but those assigned to clean up sure we're but we're received when knowing the actual hazards. A nuclear bomb breaking apart or having a partial detonation is not a major concern for dangerous radio activity.

With nuclear fuel leaking out or being blown out you get Alpha radiation. You certainly do not want to breathe it in or get it in contact with your skin but otherwise, easy peasy. Alpha radiation will not penetrate a single piece of newspaper. Our hazmat suits were thin nylon with air filtration mask.Special government issue for us. Those guys assigned to dig it out wore paper hazmat suits with air filtration mask. No harm came to any of them and the good ol air force kept an eye on each one for a while. So, if a nuclear bomb lands in your yard and doesn't have one of those distinct mushroom clouds, (like you would even know) relax.

A little tidbit about we brave men and women of the US Air Force trained in NBC warfare medicine so made us the ones who could identify the dangers the quickest. Any time an unconventional weapon would be transfered be it land, ship, or air. Navy guys on ships. The Air Force was always concerned for every one's safety. The want to make sure that the proper people were on hand if there was an accident. What did the smart generals come up with? Put the proper personnel on the same planes or in a truck accompanying it. I remember on a few agent orange flights, what the fuck am I supposed to help with if the plane crashes? Geniuses. One thing was always a given. The ones with the best knowledge put in harm's way we're never officers. Someone must have figured it out at one time that doing that would have probably created bigger messes. For me, I was always way more concerned about accompanying chemicals or those boxes that basically said quietly, touch me and your dead, than any time being around a nuclear bomb or 30 of them.