How do you guys invest?

[pantaiema]

Any one knows where to buy gold, like troy ounces, here in Indonesia?

Is there a list of officially recognized gold producers? Or brands, like C. Hafner or Umicore in EU? So you always know that you have bought real gold.

I found this article about gold producers. Anyone has experience with buying and selling gold here in Indonesia?

Ini Daftar Perusahaan Produsen Emas Terbesar di Indonesia

Simak daftar perusahaan produsen emas di Indonesia, termasuk tentang perusahaan emas terbesar di Indonesia.

money.kompas.com

Unless you are buying physical gold as jewellery for special occasions, you are a goldsmith, I struggle to understand the appeal. You have to consider storage, insurance, and other practicalities.

Also, be aware that buying gold in Indonesia is less regulated. For instance, there have been reports of counterfeit gold circulating.

https://www.tribunnews.com/nasional...k-2010-hingga-2022-cek-logam-mulia-milik-kamu 109 Tons of Antam Gold Faked, Circulating From 2010 to 2022, Check Your holding.

There are alternative investment options:

• Buying gold in the commodity market.
• Investing in gold ETFs, such as SPDR, which may also include gold mining companies.

Both options track the physical gold price, so the end result will be the same but cheaper maintenance and trading fees. They are easier to buy and sell. Maintenance and trading costs are typically very low or even zero, depending on the platform you use.

 

[Samoerai]

109 Tons of Antam Gold Faked, Circulating From 2010 to 2022, Check Your holding.

Wow ... how to check?

 

[pantaiema]

Wow ... how to check?

IMO people might for instance visit a REPUTABLE 'goldsmith' but they might be charging you for it.

 

[Pak Tani]

Wow ... how to check?

Kasus Emas Antam 109 Ton: Negara Merugi Ratusan Triliun Rupiah, Bantahan Emas Palsu Beredar

Wow, another big legal case of a mining company. The article above explains that the 'fake' Antam gold is real gold produced at the official facilities of Antam and that the certificates are real and accepted by the LBMA*. The people involved were general managers, they kept their produce out of the books.

*according to Antam

 

[Samoerai]

Kasus Emas Antam 109 Ton: Negara Merugi Ratusan Triliun Rupiah, Bantahan Emas Palsu Beredar

Wow, another big legal case of a mining company. The article above explains that the 'fake' Antam gold is real gold produced at the official facilities of Antam and that the certificates are real and accepted by the LBMA*. The people involved were general managers, they kept their produce out of the books.

*according to Antam

Well ... then now is a good time to sell "this gold" back ... (price is high now .. around 63 US dollars per gram).

 

[pantaiema]

Kasus Emas Antam 109 Ton: Negara Merugi Ratusan Triliun Rupiah, Bantahan Emas Palsu Beredar

Wow, another big legal case of a mining company. The article above explains that the 'fake' Antam gold is real gold produced at the official facilities of Antam and that the certificates are real and accepted by the LBMA*. The people involved were general managers, they kept their produce out of the books.

*according to Antam

There is also recent news in Reuters about Indonesian Antam Gold.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/com...erns-about-indonesian-state-miner-2024-06-06/

Goldsmiths and trade people in this sector can easily differentiate between fake and real gold and assess its purity. However, if there are concerns about the legality of the refinery and certification, it might become difficult to resell the gold unless you're willing to do so at a heavily discounted price to compensate for the risk buyers are taking. Nowadays, people and especially international buyers are also concerned about ethical sourcing, similar to the issue (more extreme) of "blood diamonds" from conflict zones in Africa.

PT Aneka Tambang Tbk (ANTM) has a significant interest in denying these allegations as they affect their share price. It is naive to believe that only six people (stated in the news) in the company are involved.

 

[centurion]

Unless you are buying physical gold as jewellery for special occasions, you are a goldsmith, I struggle to understand the appeal. You have to consider storage, insurance, and other practicalities.

Also, be aware that buying gold in Indonesia is less regulated. For instance, there have been reports of counterfeit gold circulating.

https://www.tribunnews.com/nasional...k-2010-hingga-2022-cek-logam-mulia-milik-kamu 109 Tons of Antam Gold Faked, Circulating From 2010 to 2022, Check Your holding.

There are alternative investment options:

• Buying gold in the commodity market.
• Investing in gold ETFs, such as SPDR, which may also include gold mining companies.

Both options track the physical gold price, so the end result will be the same but cheaper maintenance and trading fees. They are easier to buy and sell. Maintenance and trading costs are typically very low or even zero, depending on the platform you use.

Unless you have hundreds of kilos of gold, storage is no problem. 1 kilo of gold is around 50 mililiters, size of a quarter of a glass. Also, physical gold comes with a premium.

 

[pantaiema]

Unless you have hundreds of kilos of gold, storage is no problem. 1 kilo of gold is around 50 mililiters, size of a quarter of a glass. Also, physical gold comes with a premium.

When it comes to holding physical gold, the primary concern is not its size or weight but the security of the asset and, more importantly, your personal safety. Currently, one kilo of Gold Bullion Bars is valued as low as $78,728.19. If people know you have this valuable assets at home, it increases the risk of a break-in.

In the event of a break in, would you risk your and your family's lives to protect it? This is why, for substantial holdings, many people choose to store their gold bullion bars and other jewellery, precious gemstones in bank vaults.

Holding gold as a commodity on a trading platform offers much better security. It is incredibly difficult to compromise these platforms, and even if one were, the chances of your account being specifically targeted are minimal due to the sheer number of accounts. Not to mention brokers/trading platforms are regulated..

Commodity and futures trading used to be exclusive to hedge funds, but now, with the rise of low, zero fee trading platforms, anyone can trade commodities like gold, gold mining stocks, or engage in futures trading.

Unless you are a goldsmith, a jewellery collector, or wear jewellery for special occasions, as is traditional for people in India and other South Asian regions; it is hard to see the appeal of holding physical gold as an investment nowadays. Why take the unnecessary risk when there are cheaper (to maintain and trade), significantly less risky options available that provide the same end result?

 

[Helpful Herbert]

But it looks nice and shiny

 

[centurion]

When it comes to holding physical gold, the primary concern is not its size or weight but the security of the asset and, more importantly, your personal safety. Currently, one kilo of Gold Bullion Bars is valued as low as $78,728.19. If people know you have this valuable assets at home, it increases the risk of a break-in.

View attachment 4209

In the event of a break in, would you risk your and your family's lives to protect it? This is why, for substantial holdings, many people choose to store their gold bullion bars and other jewellery, precious gemstones in bank vaults.

Holding gold as a commodity on a trading platform offers much better security. It is incredibly difficult to compromise these platforms, and even if one were, the chances of your account being specifically targeted are minimal due to the sheer number of accounts. Not to mention brokers/trading platforms are regulated..

Commodity and futures trading used to be exclusive to hedge funds, but now, with the rise of low, zero fee trading platforms, anyone can trade commodities like gold, gold mining stocks, or engage in futures trading.

Unless you are a goldsmith, a jewellery collector, or wear jewellery for special occasions, as is traditional for people in India and other South Asian regions; it is hard to see the appeal of holding physical gold as an investment nowadays. Why take the unnecessary risk when there are cheaper (to maintain and trade), significantly less risky options available that provide the same end result?

For one kilo or less you could be less stingy and rent a safe in a bank.

 

[Shadrach]

When it comes to holding physical gold, the primary concern is not its size or weight but the security of the asset and, more importantly, your personal safety. Currently, one kilo of Gold Bullion Bars is valued as low as $78,728.19. If people know you have this valuable assets at home, it increases the risk of a break-in.

View attachment 4209

In the event of a break in, would you risk your and your family's lives to protect it? This is why, for substantial holdings, many people choose to store their gold bullion bars and other jewellery, precious gemstones in bank vaults.

Holding gold as a commodity on a trading platform offers much better security. It is incredibly difficult to compromise these platforms, and even if one were, the chances of your account being specifically targeted are minimal due to the sheer number of accounts. Not to mention brokers/trading platforms are regulated..

Commodity and futures trading used to be exclusive to hedge funds, but now, with the rise of low, zero fee trading platforms, anyone can trade commodities like gold, gold mining stocks, or engage in futures trading.

Unless you are a goldsmith, a jewellery collector, or wear jewellery for special occasions, as is traditional for people in India and other South Asian regions; it is hard to see the appeal of holding physical gold as an investment nowadays. Why take the unnecessary risk when there are cheaper (to maintain and trade), significantly less risky options available that provide the same end result?

For two reason not to let someone else hold your money is, banks collapse, ( 1930's America) the stock market is variable, Once I lost half of my inheritance, because I invested in the stock market. When I went to take out the remaining money, they said, leave it in, it will come back up. I said I can't wait twenty years, and then find out, It's all gone!
Investing, is a game for people with money they can possibly lose, without destroying them. Are you one of these people?

 

[Ruserious]

they said, leave it in, it will come back up

Yes but they were right.

 

[Balifrog]

Yes but they were right.

Yep, but not when you're 70 ......

 

[pantaiema]

When I went to take out the remaining money, they said, leave it in, it will come back up. I said I can't wait twenty years, and then find out, It's all gone!

You are entitled to your own opinion and sorry to hear that you lost all of your money in investing. Because others read this forum, it is important to give a balance view and possibly correct any misconceptions.

It depends on what you're investing in. If you're investing in individual stocks, commodities, or cryptocurrencies, which are well known for their market volatility then it might be. You might also fall into the investment scam such as pump and dump, the lure of penny stocks. But there is also potential for high risk/high reward, for those who know what they are doing very well aware of investment pitfall and have a bit of luck; They could see significant returns.

However, for ordinary people with limited knowledge and essentially for everyone, investing in less risky assets such as well-known indexes and bonds, especially government bonds and T-Bills, carries much lower risk relative to the potential reward. All they need to do is throw their money blidly in well-known indexes and hold onto it without selling at a loss. Historically, the stock market or indexes have provided positive returns over the decades.

Here is the S&P 500 performance. Anyone rational can understand this graph. Even if the market drops, you can wait (leave it) until it recovers. Will you lose your money if you are patient?

In 1956 S&P 500 is just around $50, and now around $5,000, so 100X

For two reason not to let someone else hold your money is, banks collapse, ( 1930's America) the stock market is variable, Once I lost half of my inheritance, because I invested in the stock market. When I went to take out the remaining money, they said, leave it in, it will come back up. I said I can't wait twenty years, and then find out, It's all gone!

You also lose the value of your money, the purchasing power of your money in other ways e.g inflation. If a bank collapses, you won't lose your money or shares if you're using legitimate brokers or platforms. Regulators ensure that you still retain your holdings and cash (up to a certain value). However, you might lose money as the value of your investments fluctuates and you sell at a loss without understanding what you're doing. It's important to learn about 'panic selling' and 'FOMO' (Fear of Missing Out).

Investing, is a game for people with money they can possibly lose, without destroying them. Are you one of these people?

I agree with this, This is frequently quoted as an investment wisdom for everyone to be aware of before throwing any money in the stock market, commodity market or other type of investing. However, it's important to also note that you have a much higher probability of success depending on what you are investing in. Just look at the graphics above. The history have shown that investing in a well known indexes, you will not lose your money if you can wait (leave it) until it recovers.

Understanding the RISK vs REWARD (e.g Return) is the key. If you are investing in an asset that have risk equal or quite similar to reward and that is non-sensible investing which is literally a gambling.

 

[pantaiema]

Yep, but not when you're 70 ......

This is true to some degrees. But it is also true if you are investing in commodities like gold, oil which is well known to have high volatility.
But also keep mind there is less risky alternative such as investing in Government Bonds, Treasury Bills (T-Bills), Gilts, government protected saving in a bank, etc. Another less risky alternative is investing in 'money market funds'

 

[pantaiema]

Correct

Lembaga Penjamin Simpanan - Simpanan Yang Dijamin

2. The interest rate received does not exceed the LPS guarantee interest rate*

Individuals who focus solely on the interest rates offered by banks, without conducting their own due diligence, risk losing their savings in rural banks (BPR) that have gone out of business.
https://www.cnnindonesia.com/ekonom.../14-bank-bangkrut-per-juli-2024-cek-daftarnya 14 Bank Bangkrut per Juli 2024, All of them are BPR.
1. PT BPR Sumber Artha Waru Agung
2. PT BPR Lubuk Raya Mandiri
3. PT BPR Bank Jepara Artha
4. PT BPR Dananta
5. PT BPRS Saka Dana Mulia
6. PT BPR Bali Artha Anugrah
7. PT BPR Sembilan Mutiara
8. PT BPR Aceh Utara
9. PT BPR EDCCASH
10. Perumda BPR Bank Purworejo
11. PT BPR Madani Karya Mulia
12. PT BPRS Mojo Artho Kota Mojokerto
13. PT BPR Bank Pasar Bhakti
14. Koperasi BPR Wijaya Kusuma.

In the past, several rural banks (BPR) offered interest rates higher than those guaranteed by the Indonesian Deposit Insurance Scheme (LPS). If these banks go out of business, your savings and deposits are not guaranteed by the government. Common sense rule these banks cease to exist because they might have numerous creditors who stop repaying their debts, leaving ordinary people, who often lack detailed knowledge about banking, to lose their lifetime savings and deposits. For all of types of limited liability companies personal asset can not be seized to cover the debts. So they will let the bank to seize all of the company assets, but it is almost guaranteed it will not be enough to cover all of their debts.

Where did the money go? Learning from previous cases, people could use their imagination; it does not need to be spelled out.

 

[Samoerai]

You also lose the value of your money, the purchasing power of your money in other ways e.g inflation.

Inflation is indeed a big problem. There is just too much money in the world.

Why? Simple, governments are the perpetrators: always borrow money. Together with banks and their customers.

Example. When I spent my vacation in Labuan Bajo in a luxury hotel last week, I saw many families from Holland, Spain, France ...

Large families with two or three children/teenagers. Where do they get the money?

One example:
A way is of inheritance. I know many families in the Netherlands who have sold their parents' house. Nowadays, a house in Holland will easily sell for around 400,000 to 800,000 euros. The person who buys the house will have to arrange a bank loan. And so money is created.

 

[jstar]

‘Eating up’ your house is never a good idea unless you’re getting old and don’t care about the offspring too much ( that could be me!).

Anyway, the deposito here is much more interesting than savings accounts or term deposits or government bonds in most western countries. There they never beat the inflation while in RI that does happen. I don’t care so much about LPS anymore but always go with the umum’s.

Btw, the rather new Superbank from Grab offers nice interest rates…

 

[Samoerai]

Just got this message from BCA ... about surat berhaga negara .. security bonds. Good investment, I wonder?

 

[jstar]

Quite many of these government bonds (staatsobligatie, Staatsanleihe, emprunt d'État) are available here. Often 3-5 years, also shariah versions exist. Think we discussed it before but kind of difficult to search for something like ‘ORI’ on the forum.