Where is Lion Air JT610?

[snpark]

Did Boeing screw up? Yes.

Did Lion Air screw up? Yes.

Both are to blame for different things.

Now Fred, in terms of your question about pilots and their training, while I haven't flown a plane before, my dad did. Military(KC-10) and commercial(727, DC10, 757, 767, Super 80). I am listing those different planes to help provide some background information for later on. I also have a friend who is also a pilot too.

Since I wasn't born when my dad started flying commercial, I can't say what he had to go through(it was the 1970s), but I have a friend who more recently went through training(just to get started for a particular company) and it was roughly six months which includes classroom and flight simulator.

For a pilot going from one plane to another like my Dad did(727 to 757/767 before he retired), he spent a month in school which included classroom and flight simulator. This is in addition to training pilots have every 9 or 10 months.

The classroom now might be online, but I will ask my friend about that. I know it wasn't when my Dad was flying, but he got out early 2008 so things have likely changed.


I hope that helps with your questions about pilots and their training Fred.

Since he's just been banned for 60 days he probably doesn't care anymore. I presume you missed the 2 previous posts?

 

[ChrisTex]

Since he's just been banned for 60 days he probably doesn't care anymore. I presume you missed the 2 previous posts?

No I saw the posts. On other forums I have been on, someone could lurk, but not post. Not exactly sure if Fred can lurk, but if he can, I am sure he will come back and try to start another argument in this thread.

I picture Fred doing this

 

[snpark]

Supertroll
or Tremendous Troll in honour of Tremendous Trump

Yes of course you can be a voyeur as a guest or make a new profile and not troll so obviously

 

[El_Goretto]

Let's move on, at least in this thread. It's already gone too far off-topic.

 

[waarmstrong]

Like BA, I am waiting for the report on the crash by the Indonesian counterpart to the NTSB. Hopefully, the report will provide an authoritative, factually supported opinion as to cause. Until then, I think we will avoid Lion Air. Perhaps not an option for some, but easy for us since we are not in-country until June.

 

[Balifrog]

Indo has a very bad reputation for aviation safety so since 1 y I live here, domestically I use only Garuda and avoid any L.C. carrier.

 

[ChrisTex]

Ok, I heard back from my friend about the training they receive now days. Pretty much everything is still using the old school classroom for the yearly sim and recurrent training. They do a quarterly training on an ipad though.

I am guessing this is part of the online and ipad training some of the articles were referring too.


In terms of the investigation, they are suppose to have something on Wednesday, like a prelim report. They still haven't found the cockpit black box though.

 

[R Cameron]

The initial report is out today. Here's my understanding so far:

• Boeing installed a stall prevention system that puts the nose down, even in manual flight modes, and does not allow manual override from the normal controls ("pull up!")
• This system was not documented in manuals and pilots trained for this aircraft (including in USA) did not know the system exists.
• The system could be disabled through an existing procedure, but the pilots didn't know the system exists and they were already in manual flight operation, so it would be easy to overlook in frantic troubleshooting.
• The aircraft had faulty sensor(s) that possibly were not repaired/replace correctly by Lion.
• A malfunction of those same sensor(s) on a plane without the stall prevention system would not be a major problem and would not result in a crash.

Boeing is looking to be mostly at fault on this one. They are very fortunate that it occurred with a budget airline that already has a poor safety reputation in a country most Boeing stock holders can't find on a map. Not so fortunate for Lion, the passengers, and the families.

 

[centurion]

Here are fresh news.
Lion Air JT610 was unfit to fly, says KNKT

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/...&utm_medium=mailchimp-nov&utm_term=lion-unfit

and the original report on 78 pages.

http://knkt.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_home/ntsc.htm

 

[snpark]

Here's my conclusion. Something went wrong, it crashed, lots of poor families will benefit financially, now it is down to who to blame rather than how or what to do to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Where is the scapegoat when you need one

 

[Nimbus]

Another article:
https://nyti.ms/2DNLLd6?smid=nytcore-ios-share

The computerized anti-stall system repeatedly forced the nose down due to faulty sensor reading. Lion Air knew about the problem, and the sensor component was replaced prior to the previous flight, but it was still not working right. The installed component was not new, but it was supposedly 'certified' for use by the FAA.

Boeing claimed that the procedure to override the MCAS system is documented in the manual, the pilots were either unaware of or forgot about it.

Plenty of blame to spread around.
- Lion Air should have grounded the plane when the sensor remained faulty after the repair.
- Boeing should have done a better job in communicating changes to their computer program.
- The pilots should have remembered the correct procedure or referred to the manual.

 

[Balifrog]

On the local side, one factor intervening is (as usual in Asia).
The crash.flight was the 4th flight where this serious problem appeared. This means that the crew of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th flight took possession of an aircraft although being aware it has faced serious flawns on the previous flights.
Very interesting is the 3rd.flight DPS to Jakarta, where the pilots experienced altitude problems immediately after take.off, but still decided to continue their flight to Jakarta in manual flying or cutting out some faulty system.
Face, face, the previous crew managed it, so if I decide to abort the flight I will look stupid...
This plane should have been taken out of service after the 2nd problematic.flight, properly checked and have a.test flight without passengers.
The technical problem is one thing, critical and fatal in this case.was the decision not to take it.out of service.
Nobody had the balls to do it, and justify it to their superiors.

 

[snpark]

I will watch it on Nat Geo Air Crash Investigations and decide then

 

[waarmstrong]

Boeing stock went up $15.47 per share, or almost 5 percent, today. Investors don't seem to care about a crash of a local carrier aircraft in a third world country halfway around the world.

 

[dafluff]

Boeing stock went up $15.47 per share, or almost 5 percent, today. Investors don't seem to care about a crash of a local carrier aircraft in a third world country halfway around the world.

My understanding is the stock went back up, after dropping around 10% after the news of the crash, because the Indonesian crash investigation team has released an initial report which basically stated the accident aircraft was not airworthy.

As usual, many factors contribute to a modern airline accident. In this case it appears to be both a poorly thought out and poorly documented feature on the airplane, and an airline which decided to keep using a plane which has had serious issues in four flights immediately previous.

 

[harryopal1]

Interesting to see a Lion Air principal indignantly rejecting the assertion that the plane was not airworthy. In the absence of evidence that the pilots were totally incompetent I would have thought that crashing into the sea was an indication of being not airworthy

 

[snpark]

Let's blame Allah now instead

The plane altitude chart looks the same as the Boeing share price

 

[waarmstrong]

Not withstanding the controversy, Boeing is up again today, almost $9 or around 2.67 %. Investors appear to be judging the stock as a good buy after the dip associated with the crash.

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

Let's blame Allah now instead

Your posts are always so insightful, but this one especially caught my eye. I just want to offer you my personal thanks: you're a real mensch (you can look it up if you're not familiar with one of the most commonly used Yiddish words - it's not derogatory or insulting - unless, of course, one were to offer it ironically / sarcastically, but that just wouldn't be in my character, so ... great job here!)

About the crash: yes, another very sad item of news indeed. And some "poor people getting money", as I believe the same poster quoted above also mentioned, should also not be a focus of this conversation in any way. Should they not? Will it bring any of those people back? Pretty obvious to me the answers are !) they should and 2) it won't.

 

[snpark]

Someone always blames God. And it is true that many families will ironically benefit from such a tragedy. That's just facts. It is well known in Dubai that impoverished construction workers commit suicide running across the road or jumping from a bridge into traffic to get the "blood money" from the driver who hit them. Again just facts. Their family loses a member but does get compensation.
I myself had a client who's husband died in the Bahrain Gulf Air tragedy who received several million US$ and she was a Filipina lady who was able to continue her life in considerable comfort.