very longterm overstay in Indonesia(help)

[flavus]

This means the airline boarding agent at the airport only needs to see the ticket and the Indonesian passport.

Ah, good to know. I wasn't sure if they would require a printout of the confirmation email or something similar

 

[Nimbus]

Ah, good to know. I wasn't sure if they would require a printout of the confirmation email or something similar

E-visa is just another name for Visa on Arrival. If you can apply for a visa without an interview, then you’re practically guaranteed to get it, so the airline isn’t worried about it.

Even if he applied for Taiwanese E-Visa, I don’t think their system is set to reject dual citizens. He could have gotten one for his Indonesian passport.

 

[flavus]

E-visa is just another name for Visa on Arrival. If you can apply for a visa without an interview, then you’re practically guaranteed to get it, so the airline isn’t worried about it.

Even if he applied for Taiwanese E-Visa, I don’t think their system is set to reject dual citizens. He could have gotten one for his Indonesian passport.

Yeah. Same with the US ESTA system - it has been known to grant one to people who also hold US passports (the US requires citizens to use US passport to enter and depart so this should not happen)

I think e-visa is considered slightly stricter than VOA as far as passport index is concerned - for ESTA at least denials do happen, and it's cheaper to reject before the passenger boards the plane than after they are in country. I think for US bound flights ESTA is probably verified at check in, but for Indonesia to Taiwan I guess not.

In any case, glad OP managed to get back to Taiwan!

 

[Nimbus]

Yeah. Same with the US ESTA system - it has been known to grant one to people who also hold US passports (the US requires citizens to use US passport to enter and depart so this should not happen)

I think e-visa is considered slightly stricter than VOA as far as passport index is concerned - for ESTA at least denials do happen, and it's cheaper to reject before the passenger boards the plane than after they are in country. I think for US bound flights ESTA is probably verified at check in, but for Indonesia to Taiwan I guess not.

In any case, glad OP managed to get back to Taiwan!

US ESTA is technically not a visa, it’s travel authorization for citizens of countries eligible to visit USA through a visa waiver program. You must have either an ESTA or a visa before you leave the departure airport, so airlines check for it.

USA is one of the few countries without immigration check at departure, they prefer to penalize immigration violation by preventing the offender from re-entering the country. As such Uncle Sam doesn’t care what passport you use to exit the country. Today the federal gov’t relies on passport information reported by airlines for exit records.

E-visa as I understand it is just a different type of Visa on Arrival. If your country is eligible for it, then you are also eligible for the traditional VoA that you apply for at the destination airport.

He’s lucky that Taiwan doesn’t require advanced visa for Indonesian passport holders.

 

[harryopal1]

That’s exactly how he did it. Indonesian passport holders can apply online for a Taiwan visa, so it doesn’t require a visa sticker in the passport. This means the airline boarding agent at the airport only needs to see the ticket and the Indonesian passport. Indonesian immigration checked that the boarding pass matched the passport, then let him leave. When he arrived in Taiwan, they had to let him in because he got a Taiwanese passport.

This doesn’t work for countries / regions that still use visa stickers for Indonesians, like USA and Schengen Europe. The boarding agent will require a visa sticker from USA or a European country before issuing a boarding pass. Dual passport holders typically fly to a third country, where they will show the second passport to the boarding agent over there.

If he were to return would it immediately become evident that he had previously overstayed and therefore would have problems?

 

[Samoerai]

US ESTA is technically not a visa, it’s travel authorization for citizens of countries eligible to visit USA through a visa waiver program. You must have either an ESTA or a visa before you leave the departure airport, so airlines check for it.

USA is one of the few countries without immigration check at departure, they prefer to penalize immigration violation by preventing the offender from re-entering the country. As such Uncle Sam doesn’t care what passport you use to exit the country. Today the federal gov’t relies on passport information reported by airlines for exit records.

E-visa as I understand it is just a different type of Visa on Arrival. If your country is eligible for it, then you are also eligible for the traditional VoA that you apply for at the destination airport.

He’s lucky that Taiwan doesn’t require advanced visa for Indonesian passport holders.

As far as I know, an US Esta is -like you said- a permission to travel to the US, but immigration at the airport can still refuse someome with Esta to enter the USA.

 

[Nimbus]

If he were to return would it immediately become evident that he had previously overstayed and therefore would have problems?

There’s a good chance that he remains undetectable. Indonesia has millions of its own expats today, so years of stay abroad is not strange anymore. Some sources say there are 300,000 Indonesians in Taiwan.

 

[Nimbus]

As far as I know, an US Esta is -like you said- a permission to travel to the US, but immigration at the airport can still refuse someome with Esta to enter the USA.

When it comes to USA, even a full page hologrammed visa is never a guarantee of entry. They say the visa is “a permission to appear before an immigration officer in the United States”, and said officer is empowered to refuse entry to anybody deemed “inadmissible”, except for citizens and permanent residents.

Still, the ESTA or a visa is close enough of a guarantee for the airline to let you board. If they don’t accept these documents, then they would be limited to flying US citizens and green card holders to USA, which would cut down their business by more than 90% probably.

 

[pantaiema]

If he were to return would it immediately become evident that he had previously overstayed and therefore would have problems?

I doubt about that. Keep in mind he managed to leave Indonesia using his Indonesian Passport, not Taiwanese passport. Unless he is officially deported from Indonesia, there is no record he has overstayed.

Unless he filled in an online Immigration form in the past where he must state his nationality, in Indonesia, he is still an Indonesian citizen, there is no record he is a Taiwanese. Also there is no reason why he needs stating that he is Taiwanese, if not asked and while he is still living in Indonesia. He has not officially renounced his Indonesian nationality, neither has his Indonesian nationality been revoked.

Keep in mind in order to revoke an Indonesian citizenship is a lengthy complicated process. It will need a presidential decree as stated in article 38 PP Number 2 In 2007 which is a derivative Citizenship Act regulates the procedures for obtaining, losing, cancelling, and regaining citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia.

Revocation of Indonesian Citizenship - Indoservice

Based on indonesian Citizenship Act Number 12 Year 2006, it is stated that citizenship status can be revoked when someone has taken an oath of loyalty.

indoservice.co.id

Unless the immigration want to spend time to transfer all of the Paper forms to online forms, Paper forms are hardly a source of personal information that could be stored for indefinitely, or to be used repeatedly. They can not pile up paper forms indefinitely, so at some points they will be destroyed. It is different with an online form which could easily be stored and could stay in database indefinitely. For that reason for those who do not like his personal information to be stored indefinitely is to avoid fill in an online form if there is an alternative to complete a paper form.

The information above is just a personal opinion. So it might not be accurate.

 

[pantaiema]

In addition to what I have mentioned above. this is the answer from ChatGPT, BardAI which is in line to what I have said above. However, keep in mind you can not rely on this answer, but at least there is a point to be made.

Keep in mind there were already a few previous cases: Alchandra Tahar, Orient P Riwu Kore, Djoko Tjandra Soegiarto. Also people are whispering that one Indonesian minister actually has US nationality.

 

[flavus]

It's likely a grey area right? Sure, officially revoking the citizenship is a lengthy process. But once it is discovered that you have two citizenships, one of two things will happen

• if you are a minister (but the public found out) something will probably be quietly worked out and you renounce your foreign citizenship instead
• if you are a mere mortal like most of us here, immigration will probably start the process of revoking your citizenship. or at the very least, you can't get a new passport anymore

Not a surprise that Indonesian laws is muddled on this matter as usual .

 

[pantaiema]

It's likely a grey area right? Sure, officially revoking the citizenship is a lengthy process. But once it is discovered that you have two citizenships, one of two things will happen

• if you are a minister (but the public found out) something will probably be quietly worked out and you renounce your foreign citizenship instead
• if you are a mere mortal like most of us here, immigration will probably start the process of revoking your citizenship. or at the very least, you can't get a new passport anymore

Not a surprise that Indonesian laws is muddled on this matter as usual .

Apart to what I have said previously, here are other public figures get caught to have dual nationalities based on professor google:

• MN a former minister of state enterprises, was found to have dual citizenship with Singapore in 2013. He was stripped of his Indonesian citizenship and banned from holding public office for 5 years.
• RF a former mayor of Padang, was found to have dual citizenship with the United States in 2018.
• EW a former governor of West Kalimantan, was found to have dual citizenship with Malaysia in 2019.

None of them were sentenced to jail as they have not broken any law. All they need if they get caught is to officially renounce one of their nationality. Alternatively If they do not the Immigration will start the process of revoking their Indonesian nationality. But for overstaying over six months I remember reading a case where someone got a jail sentence.

It is widely known that some of Indonesian billionaires have dual nationalities, mainly Australian. Keep in mind to get an Australian permanent residency for instance all they need is to stay for two years under Business and Investment visas. After four years of permanent residency in Australia they could become an Australian citizen.

Again keep in mind the information above might not be accurate. So for those who has got another passport and want to keep his indonesian passport, do that with your own peril.

 

[flavus]

Thanks. Kind of interesting that there is no penalty involved beyond just losing citizenship when found out. I would not be against requiring reporting with a penalty for those who don't - or at least a penalty if you use your Indonesian passport after having acquired another.

But for the former - they really need to make the process of relinquishing easier. Right now unless you want to return and get a KITAP and KTP OA it doesn't seem to be worth all the bureaucratic hassle

 

[William King]

When it comes to USA, even a full page hologrammed visa is never a guarantee of entry. They say the visa is “a permission to appear before an immigration officer in the United States”, and said officer is empowered to refuse entry to anybody deemed “inadmissible”, except for citizens and permanent residents.

Still, the ESTA or a visa is close enough of a guarantee for the airline to let you board. If they don’t accept these documents, then they would be limited to flying US citizens and green card holders to USA, which would cut down their business by more than 90% probably.

That’s pretty much the case in all counties in the world. A visa is not a guaranteed permission to enter.

 

[flavus]

When it comes to USA, even a full page hologrammed visa is never a guarantee of entry. They say the visa is “a permission to appear before an immigration officer in the United States”, and said officer is empowered to refuse entry to anybody deemed “inadmissible”, except for citizens and permanent residents.

Still, the ESTA or a visa is close enough of a guarantee for the airline to let you board. If they don’t accept these documents, then they would be limited to flying US citizens and green card holders to USA, which would cut down their business by more than 90% probably.

You'll be surprised. From visajourney.com apparently Pakistan and Turkey and their airlines have been known to police permanent residents who stayed out of the US too long and refusing to let them fly in (even though under US rules in such a case you have the right to ask for an immigration court hearing)

 

[centurion]

Apart to what I have said previously, here are other public figures get caught to have dual nationalities based on professor google:

• MN a former minister of state enterprises, was found to have dual citizenship with Singapore in 2013. He was stripped of his Indonesian citizenship and banned from holding public office for 5 years.
• RF a former mayor of Padang, was found to have dual citizenship with the United States in 2018.
• EW a former governor of West Kalimantan, was found to have dual citizenship with Malaysia in 2019.

None of them were sentenced to jail as they have not broken any law. All they need if they get caught is to officially renounce one of their nationality. Alternatively If they do not the Immigration will start the process of revoking their Indonesian nationality. But for overstaying over six months I remember reading a case where someone got a jail sentence.

It is widely known that some of Indonesian billionaires have dual nationalities, mainly Australian. Keep in mind to get an Australian permanent residency for instance all they need is to stay for two years under Business and Investment visas. After four years of permanent residency in Australia they could become an Australian citizen.

Again keep in mind the information above might not be accurate. So for those who has got another passport and want to keep his indonesian passport, do that with your own peril.

They can get their assets confiscated (the one that they cannot hold, such are hak milik, shares in local Indonesian PTs, CVs) the moment they are found with 2 passports.
There is no need for presidential decree to strip somebody of citizenship, if having 2nd citizenship it goes automatically in the eyes of the law. There is even a court verdict about that.

 

[kanmaro]

Hopefully it didn't take you 4 years though

Actually I left indonesia before Taiwan close its doors due to the pandemics. Was around march 2019

 

[kanmaro]

I'm curious too. Indonesian passport holders require e-visa to enter Taiwan as far as I can tell. Did you stop in Singapore or somewhere else and swap passports?

I applied online for the 14 day traveling visa.

 

[Nimbus]

They can get their assets confiscated (the one that they cannot hold, such are hak milik, shares in local Indonesian PTs, CVs) the moment they are found with 2 passports.
There is no need for presidential decree to strip somebody of citizenship, if having 2nd citizenship it goes automatically in the eyes of the law. There is even a court verdict about that.

The way I understand it the Agrarian law doesn’t require loss of Indonesian citizenship to take effect, it requires having foreign citizenship to prohibit ownership of land.

 

[Nimbus]

You'll be surprised. From visajourney.com apparently Pakistan and Turkey and their airlines have been known to police permanent residents who stayed out of the US too long and refusing to let them fly in (even though under US rules in such a case you have the right to ask for an immigration court hearing)

I think they ran into too many cases where they had to eat the cost of the return ticket for ignorant green card holders. The CBP is known to push the I-407 (voluntary abandonment of permanent residence) to this kind of PR, and many of them are either uninformed or too intimidated to refuse to sign. It’s no secret that many CBP agents are not friendly toward immigrants, particularly under guidance from the previous administration, especially from Muslim-majority countries.

I’m sure the officer promises to let them go if they sign, while neglecting to tell them that he still has to let them go even if they don’t sign. If you’re suspected of staying outside USA for too long, you’d be referred to immigration court, but you wouldn’t be jailed until the court date.