Time for More Protest

[Nimbus]

The last time we gave a strong man carte blanche to deal with a perceived national threat, up to 2 million people died as a result. The man's name was Suharto, and the perceived threat was communism.

While I wouldn't exist today if the communists won, even I'm not sure if 2 million people had to die. We need to be careful that the solution doesn't become worse than the problem.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
- Santayana

 

[fastpitch17]

I think those that refuse to acknowledge the past may be planning to repeat it.

 

[waarmstrong]

Curtailing human rights in order to thwart those intent on doing away with our rights, I don't view as a path to success for Indonesia. Becoming what which we despise, to thwart its coming is a solution that leads to the same result, win or lose.

Indonesia is neither Iran nor Afghanistan or Syria, culturally, historically, or developmentally. The comparison is ill informed.

 

[lifelongexpat]

In terms of culture I agree Indonesia is not any of the Middle Eastern states you've mentioned. However, one has to look at the inroads of what some like to call 'Arabic Colonialism' has made in not only Indonesia, but also Malaysia and Brunei.

Are the attempts to implement Hudud in certain parts of Malaysia in keeping with traditional Malay customs? Absolutely not. It's all in the name of trying to keep up with Saudi Arabia who a growing number of people believe to be a role model of a country to follow.

The same goes for fashion. Donning Middle Eastern inspired attire is becoming more and more popular because it is deemed to be more Islamic.

So there is a real threat of the cultures of these countries slowly being eroded and replaced with Middle Eastern culture.

 

[lifelongexpat]

http://m.themalaymailonline.com/mal...mahathir-malaysia-undergoing-arab-colonialism

http://m.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/stop-aping-arabs-johor-sultan-tells-malays

 

[Dan]

In terms of culture I agree Indonesia is not any of the Middle Eastern states you've mentioned. However, one has to look at the inroads of what some like to call 'Arabic Colonialism' has made in not only Indonesia, but also Malaysia and Brunei.

Are the attempts to implement Hudud in certain parts of Malaysia in keeping with traditional Malay customs? Absolutely not. It's all in the name of trying to keep up with Saudi Arabia who a growing number of people believe to be a role model of a country to follow.

The same goes for fashion. Donning Middle Eastern inspired attire is becoming more and more popular because it is deemed to be more Islamic.

So there is a real threat of the cultures of these countries slowly being eroded and replaced with Middle Eastern culture.

So, Europeans colonize Southeast Asia, impart their dress, religion, customs and what not and this is all well and good apparently. The influence of Europeans on people in the region is very clear.

Arabs didn't have colonial offices in Southeast Asia. They didn't claim any part of the archipelago as their own. Some did settle and intermarry with the indigenous population. They came to trade, however, and many of the indigenous people adopted Arab customs and the religion of Islam of their own volition, not because the "Arab East India Company" brought it at the barrel of a gun.

I think that irks people like you, to know that "otherwise" intelligent and good natured people could become Muslims and/or adopt Arab customs and dress. If they adopt Western dress, this is to be expected, your worldview demands it. If they adopt the equally foreign dress, religion and customs of India, another such wave of trade and cultural exchange as with Arabs, that's OK because it fulfills your desire for exoticism.

The unique cultures present aren't going anywhere. Give the indigenous people more credit than that.

Giving the people the freedom to openly criticize, question and denounce atrocities done in the name of God, THAT is how you defeat religious fundamentalists and extremists. There are no substitutes for freedom of religion and secularism.

 

[lifelongexpat]

My worldview is all about development and progress. Which is what the Western ethos is all about. Going forward and not going backwards. What I'm speaking out about are ideologies that want to drag humanity back to the dark ages. If a spanner has to be thrown into the works somewhere to restore order. So be it.

 

[fastpitch17]

So, Europeans colonize Southeast Asia, impart their dress, religion, customs and what not and this is all well and good apparently. The influence of Europeans on people in the region is very clear.

Dan, did you miss this post by Dafluff or just decide to ignore it since it may not agree with what you have to say. Of course, as for dress, the main change came with the radical organization build up at Suhartos end but still, Arab-Indonesians.

The descriptions and analyses outlined above suggest that the history of Arabs in Indonesia began long before the influence European colonialism, although there were a great number of Arab migrants in the 19th century and onwards.

https://forum.expatindo.org/threads...cial-relations-and-contemporary-changes.2561/

Arabs didn't have colonial offices in Southeast Asia. They didn't claim any part of the archipelago as their own. Some did settle and intermarry with the indigenous population. They came to trade, however, and many of the indigenous people adopted Arab customs and the religion of Islam of their own volition, not because the "Arab East India Company" brought it at the barrel of a gun.

Oh, Dan. You remember that story of the beginning of Islam in Indonesia where the Sultan who wanted to trade with the Arabs was told no, not unless he converted. After that, they knew his subjects would follow. All threats do not come from guns.

I think that irks people like you, to know that "otherwise" intelligent and good natured people could become Muslims and/or adopt Arab customs and dress. If they adopt Western dress, this is to be expected, your worldview demands it. If they adopt the equally foreign dress, religion and customs of India, another such wave of trade and cultural exchange as with Arabs, that's OK because it fulfills your desire for exoticism.

Western dress? Why even go there when since the beginning it has been more about traditional dress? Stop trying to change the subject to fit you.

The unique cultures present aren't going anywhere. Give the indigenous people more credit than that.

Gee Dan, I thought it was the indigenous people who were the designers of traditional dress. Who do you men, the real indigenous people or the indigenous people that appeared later. Ha, they can't really do that now, can they?

Giving the people the freedom to openly criticize, question and denounce atrocities done in the name of God, THAT is how you defeat religious fundamentalists and extremists. There are no substitutes for freedom of religion and secularism.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Except those people doing that will kill you if you speak up. At least get the sharia police after your ass. This is Indonesia. You don't seem to be able to question actions and words that come from the Arab-Indonesian led radical groups.

 

[lifelongexpat]

They're using the 'Trojan Horse' method. Not only in Indonesia and Malaysia. But also in Europe etc.

I don't see many refugees being resettled in neighboring Middle Eastern countries. They end up in Europe and then Saudi Arabia sends money to build more mosques.

A sneaky approach that appears to be working. Luckily, Europe is beginning to wake up and smell the coffee. I hope Indonesia does before its too late.

 

[Anglian]

it's odd really most young Saudi's I worked with would have rather come to work in jeans and a T shirt, but not allowed like the women they have to conform, be on a flight to London and see how quickly the young girls discard the burqua and appear like young models in the latest western fashions, some are very pretty, no wonder the men bag them up, on the return flight from London half way through the flight down to the toilets and bag up, at CGK how many Arab men do you see wearing the thobe, more in western dress.
I'm wondering what the effect of the Saudi's finicial decline will mean to Islam in Saudi Arabia, its only the sharia police keeping the young in check and the king in power

 

[waarmstrong]

My worldview is all about development and progress. Which is what the Western ethos is all about. Going forward and not going backwards. What I'm speaking out about are ideologies that want to drag humanity back to the dark ages. If a spanner has to be thrown into the works somewhere to restore order. So be it.

Are you referring to the Amish, Luddites, or perhaps Tea Party adherents, maybe members of the Missouri Synod and other denominations who wish to roll back the franchise extended to women and the LGBT community?

Is "spanner" a euphemism for Trump?

 

[lifelongexpat]

Odd examples to direct at a Brit.

 

[waarmstrong]

They're using the 'Trojan Horse' method. Not only in Indonesia and Malaysia. But also in Europe etc.

I don't see many refugees being resettled in neighboring Middle Eastern countries. They end up in Europe and then Saudi Arabia sends money to build more mosques.

A sneaky approach that appears to be working. Luckily, Europe is beginning to wake up and smell the coffee. I hope Indonesia does before its too late.

There are a lot of refugees fleeing war and seeking a new life in Europe, but many more in Jordan and Turkey and other points of refuge from the bombing and poison gas closer to home. That is the least of the factual errors in your screed. The rest is pretty much baloney. To view the refugees as a monolithic stealth invasion force that can be coopted by Saudi money to destroy Western liberal society requires cultural Xenophobia and unbounded ethnic prejudice on a grand scale.

 

[lifelongexpat]

In all fairness I used the term 'resettlement'.

The refugees in Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon have not been resettled. For instance, Turkish law has no provision for resettlement and only temporary protection status.

The only Muslim majority nation that has made an effort to 'resettle' any refugees is Malaysia which has pledged to 're-settle' 3,000 refugees. Saudi Arabia's assistance is questionable. They have assisted with resettlement, but only to Syrians who have family already residing there.

 

[Dan]

Western dress? Why even go there when since the beginning it has been more about traditional dress? Stop trying to change the subject to fit you.

I would wager a majority of our forum membership are *Westerners*. It's germane to the subject: why is it only an issue for you when speaking of Arab or "Middle Eastern" values, traits and clothing? If your objective is to safeguard the indigenous cultures why not engage in a little navel gazing?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Except those people doing that will kill you if you speak up. At least get the sharia police after your ass. This is Indonesia. You don't seem to be able to question actions and words that come from the Arab-Indonesian led radical groups.

And there's a pathway to questioning authority via autocracy? Do dictators no longer kill people for speaking up? You're asking Indonesians to replace one evil for another because you view a dictatorship as the lesser of two evils. The reasoning goes that Muslims are simply incapable of maintaining a modern, progressive state, therefore the only solution is to prop up autocracies in the hopes that they'll be more hospitable to your interests (but perhaps not better for the locals).

There's an ethical decision to be made here, one that puts people first. It starts with advocating for secularism in Indonesia, for protecting its religious, cultural, sexual and ethnic minorities. Cheering on a return to the nation's darkest days has a far worse body count than the people you fear.

 

[fastpitch17]

Thank you Dan for telling me what I said. I would never have thought that without you pointing it out to me. I guess since we are telling what someone else is secretly saying than I see you are still siding with the Islamist Radicals and won't be happy until every Christian has been wiped from the face of the Earth.

Sorry Dan, I would not like to see a Dictatorship, especially since that in all likelihood be in line with the elevation of radical Islam and the elimination of the constitution. Oh, and just because the majority in the forum are Westerners doesn't mean they are biased to change everything to their way. Most wouldn't be here if they were not able to adapt in many ways. Why insult Westerners in a way that belittles their capability in observing and making observation? Are Westerners incapable of having insites into cultures and traditions or is that just reserved for your vast superiority of Indonesian cultures and traditions? Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot. We are just here observing and adapting while you sit in your easy chair in the US without your family. You should be back here where you always adapt and except everything around you without question. At least you would be back with your family. I'm sure you would easily adapt and fit right back in as head of the household.

Know, what did I say? According to you, I have no idea but you do. For now I need to go buy a suit, tie, long pants, solid colored shirts, belt, and whatever I need to instil my Western will on others here. I better hurry over and buy a car so I can show off my Western way. Or, just move my ass back to the US so I can be surrounded by the modern world where no one cares about anyone else. Naw, I'll stay here and tell people they need to look at their roots and understand them while moving into the future. To know and learn from their history to achieve a better future. I will continue to tell them that while being a flock of sheep offers them a life of less responsibilities, in the end they just become kambing sate for the shepherd's parties.

 

[Daniel50]

Are you referring to the Amish, maybe members of the Missouri Synod and other denominations who wish to roll back the franchise extended to women and the LGBT community?

Hahaha....... yes if you put those terrible Amish or esp. Missouri Synod in charge they are almost synonymous with the Taliban or ISIS. The girls will not be allowed to attend schools, possibly a bombing campaign and the LGBT should be thrown off the rooftops to their deaths. Possibly also beheadings and crucifixions.

 

[Dan]

Thank you Dan for telling me what I said. I would never have thought that without you pointing it out to me. I guess since we are telling what someone else is secretly saying than I see you are still siding with the Islamist Radicals and won't be happy until every Christian has been wiped from the face of the Earth.

Sorry Dan, I would not like to see a Dictatorship, especially since that in all likelihood be in line with the elevation of radical Islam and the elimination of the constitution. Oh, and just because the majority in the forum are Westerners doesn't mean they are biased to change everything to their way. Most wouldn't be here if they were not able to adapt in many ways. Why insult Westerners in a way that belittles their capability in observing and making observation? Are Westerners incapable of having insites into cultures and traditions or is that just reserved for your vast superiority of Indonesian cultures and traditions? Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot. We are just here observing and adapting while you sit in your easy chair in the US without your family. You should be back here where you always adapt and except everything around you without question. At least you would be back with your family. I'm sure you would easily adapt and fit right back in as head of the household.

Know, what did I say? According to you, I have no idea but you do. For now I need to go buy a suit, tie, long pants, solid colored shirts, belt, and whatever I need to instil my Western will on others here. I better hurry over and buy a car so I can show off my Western way. Or, just move my ass back to the US so I can be surrounded by the modern world where no one cares about anyone else. Naw, I'll stay here and tell people they need to look at their roots and understand them while moving into the future. To know and learn from their history to achieve a better future. I will continue to tell them that while being a flock of sheep offers them a life of less responsibilities, in the end they just become kambing sate for the shepherd's parties.

"Jokowi says he wants drug dealers killed. OK, dumb but at the same time, drug dealers can harm a portion of the population. You would think that efforts to take over all the population government would be met with even more force. It should be. Words are not going to do it."

Your words, not mine. Nobody is putting words in your mouth, you've done a fine job of outing yourself already.

I'd love to be back, but that's just not in the cards right now.

Westerners aren't incapable of making insights. It's perfectly fine that they share their cultures and values. The point is that it's hypocritical for you to engage in a xenophobic rejection of Arab or Islamic influence when you too are a foreigner.

I mean, seriously, you're *nonplussed* by xenophobic statements made in Indonesia, right? And you don't see anything hypocritical at all here?

 

[waarmstrong]

Hahaha....... yes if you put those terrible Amish or esp. Missouri Synod in charge they are almost synonymous with the Taliban or ISIS. The girls will not be allowed to attend schools, possibly a bombing campaign and the LGBT should be thrown off the rooftops to their deaths. Possibly also beheadings and crucifixions.

It has not been all too long ago that the Iowa Amish community prohibited their children from attending public schools, preferring a teacher of the "right" faith coupled with an 8th grade education. And yes we have our own US born and raised indigenous fanatical bombers, as well as many who would strip their rights from gays and, as of yesterday, ban LGTB persons from military service. And yes as well, there are conservative, fundamentalist Christian screeds telling the faithful that death is the appropriate punishment for members of the LGBT community.

Most all cultures and religions have a crackpot fringe advocating pretty much the same thing for what they think are different reasons. My point was and is that curtaining human rights in order to deny them to groups with despised fringe ideas will not only end freedoms for all, but will destroy our cultural/social structure all together. One of the sterling and unique attributes of liberal Western societies is the acceptance of diversity and tolerance of crackpots.

 

[fastpitch17]

"Jokowi says he wants drug dealers killed. OK, dumb but at the same time, drug dealers can harm a portion of the population. You would think that efforts to take over all the population government would be met with even more force. It should be. Words are not going to do it."

Your words, not mine. Nobody is putting words in your mouth, you've done a fine job of outing yourself already.

I'd love to be back, but that's just not in the cards right now.

Westerners aren't incapable of making insights. It's perfectly fine that they share their cultures and values. The point is that it's hypocritical for you to engage in a xenophobic rejection of Arab or Islamic influence when you too are a foreigner.

I mean, seriously, you're *nonplussed* by xenophobic statements made in Indonesia, right? And you don't see anything hypocritical at all here?

Yep, I would rather see anyone trying to take over the government met with force. Unlike you seem to be saying, I do not side myself with radical Islamist that wants the current government out and instigate Sharia law. It also seems that you are saying that foreigners can't make any observations and have opinions of anything. I bet if I came on here and said up with the radicals and up with overthrowing the government you would give me a great big like and post how I have great insight. Sorry, not going to happen. Unlike you, I do not bow down to the Arab Islam spreading it's poisonous tentacles into all parts of the world. You want to be a submissive little man with no meaning in your life, so be it.

Dan, may I suggest you go and follow Abdullah Sameer on your Facebook. He is always looking for someone to debate about your Islam. He is a former Muslim but no one wants to debate him. Watch out because he does deal in logic and science so he may convert you out.