The show has started

[pantaiema]

The show has started. Crowds Gather in Front of the Indonesian House of Representatives, Aid Post Established, and Supplies Continue to Arrive

 

[pantaiema]

The updated situation in front of parliament building

 

[pantaiema]

They have started blocking the bank accounts of people who participate in demonstrations. This is another indication of how risky it can be to keep a large portion of your money in Indonesian banks.

Some people may argue that these individuals are demonstrators, but it is important to note that participating in these demonstrations is not necessarily illegal. A bank should only be able to restrict or block access to someone’s account if there is a contractual basis in its Terms & Conditions and/or a valid court order or other legal authority. Also do not expect the Indonesian ombudsman will do their job to protect the consumers. Add that with political sycophants such as this indonesian Minister of human right, Natalius Pigai, who said blocking someone bank account does not contravene the human right. Imagine if access bank account is access to someone critical lifeline such as hospitalisation expenditure, food on the table for households

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It seems they started to pay the price for their action as people started to withdraw their money. If it turn to become a domino effect, it could be problematic.

For expats, this is particularly relevant when considering the amount of money that some people are required to place with Indonesian banks for residency programs. For example, the Golden Visa E33 may require a US$130k deposit with a state-owned bank.


What happens if the bank suddenly restricts access to that money for whatever reason? You could potentially find yourself unable to access a significant amount of your own funds.

This is not entirely hypothetical. About a year ago, Indonesian banks reportedly began blocking accounts that had been inactive for more than six months. While it was possible to have the accounts unblocked, there could be an unblocking fee, and you will need to do it in person, and the bank could potentially refuse or delay the request indefinitely. I personally know a few people get caught in this situations.

The broader point is that, unless you have no other option, putting a large amount of money into an Indonesian bank carries a level of access and regulatory risk that should not be overlooked, especially when the funds are required to remain there for a residency or investment-related purpose.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

So did anything actually happen in these demonstrations? I can't see any major news reports or anything. Was it really worth shutting down schools for two days around the city just for a crowd of people outside the parliament?

 

[jstar]

No

 

[jstar]

They have started blocking the bank accounts of people who participate in demonstrations. This is another indication of how risky it can be to keep a large portion of your money in Indonesian banks.

It is somewhat more nuanced than that. The Jakarta Metropolitan Police (Polda Metro Jaya) requested a temporary transaction suspension (up to five working days) of one account to investigate the legality of the fundraising activities and the source of the donated funds on that account. Mandiri complied. Obviously fundraising requires a proper business permit.

And about banks and blocking accounts; I’ve seen much worse in Europe. And banks nowadays are sh!tting their pants when they suspect something or if there’s a hint of money laundering involved. I personally got a huge amount of questions from a European bank when I deposited €5.000 in cash. And was blocked and (after being a loyal customer for 30 years) removed as client when I did not want to show them my yearly (and confidential) tax reports. Relationship manager of +15 years blamed HQ and left me standing in the cold.

 

[snpark]

Yeh go to Europe or UK and try find an actual physical branch and try and withdraw even 2,000 gbp or euro or $ in CASH from your own account and it's a 1 hour stressful event

Meanwhile in Dubai you can sit at home and withdraw $100,000 cash and they send the car to your villa and serve you at home

Here BCA request you to order more than 100jt in advance if you want cash because actually the cash they take in goes for sorting, cleaning etc so that does make sense.

Big deposits cash I have not been questioned yet up to 500jt

Cash in Euro or notes I get it transferred direct from the money changer no questions asked even up to 100,000 in a day somehow

And int'l transfers in, well I work in finance so I am ahead of the bank and already warned them ahead of the transfer and provided MT103, passport of the sender, and even back story etc etc so everyone happy

Regarding dormant inactive accounts that's actually SOP as maintaining them also costs banks money and they need to update KYC etc so usually an account is only frozen until you can get your ass to the branch and update data, no big deal, and if you don't live here you shouldn't even have that account, pays to use sense and make a transaction once or twice a year, even just juggle some money about

 

[pantaiema]

It is somewhat more nuanced than that. The Jakarta Metropolitan Police (Polda Metro Jaya) requested a temporary transaction suspension (up to five working days) of one account to investigate the legality of the fundraising activities and the source of the donated funds on that account. Mandiri complied. Obviously fundraising requires a proper business permit.

There are debates regarding the legality of this without any condition stated in T&C.
This is just an example

https://www.hukumonline.com/berita/a/rekening-koordinator-warga-pati-diblokir-saat-aksi--bagaimana-aturan-hukumnya-lt6a8bfafedc9e8/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

In general If this was legally a bank account blocking, merely receiving an informal request from law enforcement such as police would not be sufficient. The new KUHAP (criminal code) treats account blocking as a coercive legal measure. So, the statutory requirements for a coercive measure would have to be satisfied. Such a blocking must obtain permission from the Chief Judge/Chairman of the District Court (Ketua Pengadilan Negeri).

But, as with many things in Indonesia, rules can sometimes be interpreted or applied selectively. And this becomes even more concerning when there is no effective or functioning ombudsman. The good example is the blocking of bank accounts of ordinary people including saving account for those who do not asses it for more than three months last year.

If this happened in a developed country with a strong financial regulator and an effective banking ombudsman, having your bank account wrongly blocked could potentially give you grounds to seek compensation. If you could demonstrate that the restriction was unlawful, unjustified or improperly handled, and that it caused significant financial loss or other serious consequences, you might be entitled to compensation. Yes there is a law regarding AML/CTF but that is differing things.

Yeh go to Europe or UK and try find an actual physical branch and try and withdraw even 2,000 gbp or euro or $ in CASH from your own account and it's a 1 hour stressful event

This one is not true. You are probably talking about an isolated case.
In many UK high-street banks, you can typically walk into a branch and withdraw more than GBP2,000 in cash over the counter without prior notice, although the exact amount varies between banks. Around GBP5,000 is a common threshold at many high street banks. They will typically needs your debit card and your ID.

For a larger amount, you could still do it over the counter, but the bank will typically require or strongly recommend advance notice, often 1–3 working days, depending on the amount and the bank's policy.

 

[snpark]

There are debates regarding the legality of this without any condition stated in T&C.
This is just an example

https://www.hukumonline.com/berita/a/rekening-koordinator-warga-pati-diblokir-saat-aksi--bagaimana-aturan-hukumnya-lt6a8bfafedc9e8/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

In general If this was legally a bank account blocking, merely receiving an informal request from law enforcement such as police would not be sufficient. The new KUHAP (criminal code) treats account blocking as a coercive legal measure. So, the statutory requirements for a coercive measure would have to be satisfied. Such a blocking must obtain permission from the Chief Judge/Chairman of the District Court (Ketua Pengadilan Negeri).

But, as with many things in Indonesia, rules can sometimes be interpreted or applied selectively. And this becomes even more concerning when there is no effective or functioning ombudsman. The good example is the blocking of bank accounts of ordinary people including saving account for those who do not asses it for more than three months last year.

If this happened in a developed country with a strong financial regulator and an effective banking ombudsman, having your bank account wrongly blocked could potentially give you grounds to seek compensation. If you could demonstrate that the restriction was unlawful, unjustified or improperly handled, and that it caused significant financial loss or other serious consequences, you might be entitled to compensation. Yes there is a law regarding AML/CTF but that is differing things.


This one is not true. You are probably talking about an isolated case.
In many UK high-street banks, you can typically walk into a branch and withdraw more than GBP2,000 in cash over the counter without prior notice, although the exact amount varies between banks. Around GBP5,000 is a common threshold at many high street banks. They will typically needs your debit card and your ID.

For a larger amount, you could still do it over the counter, but the bank will typically require or strongly recommend advance notice, often 1–3 working days, depending on the amount and the bank's policy.

I'm sorry but on this one you are wrong. When was the last time you were even in the UK and tried to physically withdraw cash in an actual branch.

I'm British by birth and often in London and it's difficult to find any manned branch let alone withdraw a few thousand in cash. Google it if you don't believe that's true.

Times are changing.

 

[pantaiema]

I'm sorry but on this one you are wrong. When was the last time you were even in the UK and tried to physically withdraw cash in an actual branch.

I'm British by birth and often in London and it's difficult to find any manned branch let alone withdraw a few thousand in cash. Google it if you don't believe that's true.

Times are changing.

Is it your own account with that particular bank, and is it a high-street bank? If you simply walk into a high-street bank where you don't hold an account and ask to withdraw cash GBP2,000+, that's a different situation.

If you are an existing customer, have sufficient funds in your account, and the bank refuses to allow you to withdraw GBP2,000 over the counter, the situation is different. If you can demonstrate that the bank's refusal was unreasonable or contrary to its terms, and that it caused you financial loss or significant inconvenience, you may have grounds to seek compensation through the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS).

This is just examples of the written documentation from Barclays, Natwest.

Counter Withdrawal Limit

As long as you have the money in your account, you can withdraw as much as you like in a Barclays branch. See your options here.

www.barclays.co.uk

How do I withdraw large amounts of cash?

You can withdraw cash over the counter during our opening hours on Monday to Friday – though not on Saturdays.

www.natwest.com

 

[Balifrog]

Concerning blocking accounts in Europe, remember the Cyprus story...

2012–2013 Cypriot financial crisis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In France any bank can decide they dont want you anymore and give you 30 days to withdraw your money before closing your account. Usually it is for political reasons.
Example Marine Le Pen, leader of the R.N. Party. The party account and her personnal accounts became "undesirable" because the party was labelled as extreme right.

The alternative media OMERTA, same because they didn't adhere to the full pro-Ukraine doxa.

Concerning cash witdrawal :
15 years ago I wanted to withdraw 5000€ in cash, specifically in 20 or 50 notes.
The bank manager asked me 3 days because they didn't have that in reserve. Ok, it is branch in a 13.000 inhabitant village.
But when I went to collect the money she asked me what I planned to do with it. When I told her "it is my money, I do want with it", she answered "Sir, tmrw morning my regional manager will call me and ask me about this payment"
So I told her to tell him I am going on holiday in Thailand and this is for my miscellanous expenses... She laughed and said OK.

And I doubt it has become easier nowadays.

One more example just came to my mind :

In February 2022, the Canadian government authorized banks to freeze personal and corporate bank accounts linked to the "Freedom Convoy" trucker protests without a court order. [1, 2]

The Emergency Action

• • The Authority: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau invoked the Emergencies Act on February 14, 2022, to end blockades and protests against pandemic restrictions and vaccine mandates. [1, 2, 3]
  • The Targets: Financial institutions were instructed to track and freeze accounts belonging to protest organizers, participants blocking streets, and entities funneling money to the demonstrations. [1, 2, 3]
  • The Scope: Up to 210 bank accounts holding a cumulative value of roughly C$7.8 million ($6.1 million) were frozen. Vehicle insurance policies connected to participating trucks were also suspended. [1, 2, 3, 4]

Resolution and Unfreezing

• • Lifting the Freezes: The government revoked the Emergencies Act on February 23, 2022, after the blockades cleared.
  • Release of Funds: Canadian finance officials confirmed that financial institutions began unfreezing and releasing the locked accounts shortly after the emergency declaration ended

 

[snpark]

If you simply walk into a high-street bank where you don't hold an account and ask to withdraw cash GBP2,000+, that's a different situation.


What are you smoking. Why on earth would I be in a Barclays trying to withdraw money from a Lloyds account

 

[snpark]

Is it your own account with that particular bank, and is it a high-street bank? If you simply walk into a high-street bank where you don't hold an account and ask to withdraw cash GBP2,000+, that's a different situation.

What are you smoking. Why on earth would I be in a Barclays trying to withdraw money from a Lloyds account

 

[pantaiema]

What are you smoking. Why on earth would I be in a Barclays trying to withdraw money from a Lloyds account

No, I don't smoke. Also, where did I ever say someone was trying to use Barclay to withdraw money from a Lloyds account? That Barclay and NatWest bank policies are just examples.

Also, while not common in the UK, in some countries you can still withdraw cash up to a certain limit over the bank counter using a credit card even if you don't bank with them. In Thailand, for instance, it's not uncommon tourists to withdraw cash at a bank counter with their credit cards. Local banks welcome this because they profit from both the exchange rate, as well as transaction fee.

I am simply pointing out that this claim:
In Europe or the UK, trying to find an actual physical branch to withdraw even 2,000 GBP, EUR, or USD in cash' from the bank counter is difficult, is incorrect and misleading.

Also, the claim that it's difficult to find a manned bank branch in London is relative inaccurate. While banks are closing branches in smaller towns and villages, and some in the cities to cut the cost, it is still relatively not hard find a fully staffed branch on a high street in London as of today. Also even the number of Bank's Branches are declining but the queue is not that bad as there are less people using the services from the counters.

Your personal experience of being difficult to withdraw £2,000 at the counter and finding staffed branch in London is likely an isolated personal case.