The government has just thrown the book at FPI.

[centurion]

Pastors Praise Anti-Gay Massacre in Orlando, Prompting Outrage (Published 2016)

One preacher received a torrent of denunciation when he said, “The tragedy is that more of them didn’t die.”

www.nytimes.com

You are right in that they are not evangelicals. A lot of the fundamentalists are Independent Baptists (my old crowd). No "happy clapping" for them.

I suppose your intention is honest, but think the argument does not hold. Some obscure Christian sects do not equalize the FPI, which is seen by 43 % of the population favourably (and HTI and similars) and Evangelicals (that was the original claim). My auntie is taller than my unce-does that fact proves that women are taller than man?

And yes, sure, Christianity was violent religion until the church was phased out of the government, which started with Reformation, French Revolution etc(16-19 century). All these desert religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism) have embedded violence in their books, but most of them evolved.
As you mentioned Christian terrorism(some lone wolfs, dozens of attacks), I can only point, risking to drift from the original subject, that now Islamic terrorism is responsible for the majority of terror attacks. You can check the Islamic terrorism page on Wikipedia-it is very long, or if you want numbers, Islamic terrorism in the period of 1979-2019 was responsible for more than 33.000 attacks, killing more than 160.000 people. From 2013 is the main cause of death by terrorism. As absurd, more than 91% of victims are Muslims themselves, according to Die Welt and www.fondapol.org/en/study/islamist-terrorist-attacks-in-the-world-1979-2019/

 

[centurion]

America is about to have a taxpayer-funded bifurcated education system that promotes a particular religion, and you worry about cake. That’s cute.

So you think American evangelicals are beyond advocating death penalty for gay people? Guess again.

Globalizing Hatred - Harvard Political Review

Though nearly a decade has passed since the most prominent interventions by American evangelicals, LGBT individuals in Uganda continue to face intense persecution stemming from the rhetoric once used by these evangelicals.

harvardpolitics.com

They can’t do it easily in USA, but they promote it globally.

U.S. Christian groups spent $280m fighting LGBT+ rights, abortion overseas

Right-wing U.S. groups have put more than $280 million into campaigns against LGBT+ rights and abortion worldwide since 2007, almost $90 million of which focused on Europe, according to a report on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

This is a try to go to a rabbit hole and cherry-picking arguments, equalizing FPI and Evangelicals, but the data and numbers do not fit. And none on the US left or Right anymore seriously denies most gay rights/marriages etc-i.e. before.

You start whataboutism starts with: yes FPI, but, bruh, in the US....., Evangelicals, Trump, global warming...

As the subject is FPI (that has 43% favourable views in the public), I can tell you, if you are not informed, that the basic rights of LGBTQ in Indonesia are non-existent, and if you are gay you can end publicly humiliated, legally prosecuted and legally canned in Indonesia by the Government (somebody would call this "systemic oppression"?). I suppose the worse situation is in Gaza Strip and in most (not all) other countries with the prevailing one religion. FPI can be only more extreme, striving for a shariah state. And yes, Indonesia finances pesantrens (religious boarding schools) from the state budget, from my tax money (local and worldwide reported btw) as well.

Your honest answer should be: As an ex-Indonesian citizen, and Muslim, I think Indonesia has a problem..... and we/Government should do this/that.....and that the religion in Indonesia..... has/does not have a problem..... and that we/Government should do...... this or that, and give us some insight about the subject. I know you can do better.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

And yes, Indonesia finances pesantrens (religious boarding schools) from the state budget, from my tax money (local and worldwide reported btw) as well.

I was amazed when I found out there is a Minstry of Religion here (something like the Ministry of Silly Walks) and when I looked into what it actually does, it mainly seems to be financing religious schools. From our tax money. Unbelievable.

 

[Nimbus]

This is a try to go to a rabbit hole and cherry-picking arguments, equalizing FPI and Evangelicals, but the data and numbers do not fit. And none on the US left or Right anymore seriously denies most gay rights/marriages etc-i.e. before.

You start whataboutism starts with: yes FPI, but, bruh, in the US....., Evangelicals, Trump, global warming...

As the subject is FPI (that has 43% favourable views in the public), I can tell you, if you are not informed, that the basic rights of LGBTQ in Indonesia are non-existent, and if you are gay you can end publicly humiliated, legally prosecuted and legally canned in Indonesia by the Government (somebody would call this "systemic oppression"?). I suppose the worse situation is in Gaza Strip and in most (not all) other countries with the prevailing one religion. FPI can be only more extreme, striving for a shariah state. And yes, Indonesia finances pesantrens (religious boarding schools) from the state budget, from my tax money (local and worldwide reported btw) as well.

Your honest answer should be: As an ex-Indonesian citizen, and Muslim, I think Indonesia has a problem..... and we/Government should do this/that.....and that the religion in Indonesia..... has/does not have a problem..... and that we/Government should do...... this or that, and give us some insight about the subject. I know you can do better.

You’re telling me what I should say? I will say whatever I feel like saying.

Your understanding of Islam is suspect, your understanding of Indonesian Muslims is suspect, and your understanding of American conservatives and Evangelical Christians is not better. You’re the last person I’d take an advice from on this topic.

If you think I’m defending FPI, you’re barking at the wrong tree. These are the very same people created in 1998 to oppose the student movement, which I was a part of. They can jump into the sea for all I care.

I am simply lamenting the fundamentalist shift in both countries. It is not a problem unique to Indonesia, it even affects USA.

Indonesia has been independent for a little over 75 years, and true democracy didn’t start until 22 years ago. She has a lot of growing up to do, so the FPI has more leeway to act. America is a first world country with 245 years of experience in Democracy, a country with mature and strong democratic institutions. Yet despite all that, her taxpayers are about to fund religious education.

 

[centurion]

You’re telling me what I should say? I will say whatever I feel like saying.

Your understanding of Islam is suspect, your understanding of Indonesian Muslims is suspect, and your understanding of American conservatives and Evangelical Christians is not better. You’re the last person I’d take an advice from on this topic.

If you think I’m defending FPI, you’re barking at the wrong tree. These are the very same people created in 1998 to oppose the student movement, which I was a part of. They can jump into the sea for all I care.

I am simply lamenting the fundamentalist shift in both countries. It is not a problem unique to Indonesia, it even affects USA.

Indonesia has been independent for a little over 75 years, and true democracy didn’t start until 22 years ago. She has a lot of growing up to do, so the FPI has more leeway to act. America is a first world country with 245 years of experience in Democracy, a country with mature and strong democratic institutions. Yet despite all that, her taxpayers are about to fund religious education.

You are equalizing the EC and FPI, serving, I hope unintentionally, as an FPI apologist. This is the same as saying that Peron's Argentina and Hitler's Germany are the same, but they are not. On one side you have silly televangelists flying in their own jets, on another side, you have proponents for sharia state that want to come to power by any, often violent means.
One extremism will fuel another one. Did the shift in the US start after 9/11 mostly?
And yes, sure you can speak what you want, but your insight would be useful as Indonesian/Muslim, an insider in the story with better knowledge than us, outsiders.

But it does not go unnoticed that you are literally putting daily your life on the line on a daily basis living among these redneck Christian extremists in a deep-red state. Now I understand that these Yazidi women are just whining. What you are going through is the real danger.

 

[HappyMan]

I suppose your intention is honest, but think the argument does not hold. Some obscure Christian sects do not equalize the FPI, which is seen by 43 % of the population favourably (and HTI and similars) and Evangelicals (that was the original claim). My auntie is taller than my unce-does that fact proves that women are taller than man?

And yes, sure, Christianity was violent religion until the church was phased out of the government, which started with Reformation, French Revolution etc(16-19 century). All these desert religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism) have embedded violence in their books, but most of them evolved.
As you mentioned Christian terrorism(some lone wolfs, dozens of attacks), I can only point, risking to drift from the original subject, that now Islamic terrorism is responsible for the majority of terror attacks. You can check the Islamic terrorism page on Wikipedia-it is very long, or if you want numbers, Islamic terrorism in the period of 1979-2019 was responsible for more than 33.000 attacks, killing more than 160.000 people. From 2013 is the main cause of death by terrorism. As absurd, more than 91% of victims are Muslims themselves, according to Die Welt and www.fondapol.org/en/study/islamist-terrorist-attacks-in-the-world-1979-2019/

I don't believe that I said that extremist Christians and the FPI are the same.If you say the scale of their support is different, I don't know otherwise. The FPI is more brazen and unified. However, these two groups' motivation, their willingness to do violence and their lack of respect for the beliefs and rights of others are very similar. If you can't see that, then you know even less about American Christian Extremism than I know about the FPI.

Actually, as regards the rise of extremist Christian politics in the States, have you not heard of Christian Nationalism? Just type it into YouTube and watch a video or two. I mean, I haven't seen them, but then I've seen the Christian Nationalists, so I don't really need convincing.

Just to be clear, I'm not really on board with things that limit people's use of their own logic, empathy, and moral compass. That's going to include all the extremisms/fundamentalisms where people have their morals handed to them from above.

I am also a big believer that people suck equally everywhere. Those FPI members and American Fundamentalists could have been switched at birth and they just would have come out as a different flavor of asshole (still shitty).

I'm kind of amazed that you don't know how extreme Fundamentalist American Christians can be and seem not to have noticed their rise to prominence. Sure, they aren't the FPI, yet.

 

[centurion]

I don't believe that I said that extremist Christians and the FPI are the same.If you say the scale of their support is different, I don't know otherwise. The FPI is more brazen and unified. However, these two groups' motivation, their willingness to do violence and their lack of respect for the beliefs and rights of others are very similar. If you can't see that, then you know even less about American Christian Extremism than I know about the FPI.

Actually, as regards the rise of extremist Christian politics in the States, have you not heard of Christian Nationalism? Just type it into YouTube and watch a video or two. I mean, I haven't seen them, but then I've seen the Christian Nationalists, so I don't really need convincing.

Just to be clear, I'm not really on board with things that limit people's use of their own logic, empathy, and moral compass. That's going to include all the extremisms/fundamentalisms where people have their morals handed to them from above.

I am also a big believer that people suck equally everywhere. Those FPI members and American Fundamentalists could have been switched at birth and they just would have come out as a different flavor of asshole (still shitty).

I'm kind of amazed that you don't know how extreme Fundamentalist American Christians can be and seem not to have noticed their rise to prominence. Sure, they aren't the FPI, yet.

Just for clarity, equalizing/relativization of Evangelicals vs FPI was by Nimbus, I thought you were continuing on his thoughts. If that added confusion, I apologize.

Agree with most of what you say, however just the amount of violence, determination and influence that one group has vs others just does not match. Islamic fundamentalism vs however creepy Christian fundamentalism, favors are on the former one by large, and the latter looks like a joke comparing to them, as you say, for now.

Just to put into perspective, SMRC research in November 2020 showed that FPI had 43% favorable views by the general public, 41% against, and 16% declined to answer(among them FPI supporters too). Think about these numbers.

 

[Pak Tani]

SMRC research in November 2020 showed that FPI had 43% favorable views by the general public, 41% against, and 16% declined to answer(among them FPI supporters too)

I assume this is your source. The article mentions that 69% of the respondents had heard of the FPI. This means that 1 out of 3 in their sample group had never even heard of FPI. Where did they find these people?! Chances are big that those who had heard of the organisation and responded to be 'in favour' know very little about the organisation and it's objectives and goals.
The FPI is known for thrashing bars during the month of ramadan. I can imagine a significant amount of the above respondents thinks that is not a bad thing (or maybe even favourable).
But what about the FPI's intentions to implement sharia? And that the leader pledged allegiance to ISIS?
There is no way that 43% of Indonesians agree with this. Great Survey by SMRC. Not.

Addit:
The title of the article "Survei SMRC: 43 Persen Orang Suka FPI" is misleading. Since it is 43% of the 69% that has heard of the FPI that like the organisation.

 

[Nimbus]

You are equalizing the EC and FPI, serving, I hope unintentionally, as an FPI apologist. This is the same as saying that Peron's Argentina and Hitler's Germany are the same, but they are not. On one side you have silly televangelists flying in their own jets, on another side, you have proponents for sharia state that want to come to power by any, often violent means.
One extremism will fuel another one. Did the shift in the US start after 9/11 mostly?
And yes, sure you can speak what you want, but your insight would be useful as Indonesian/Muslim, an insider in the story with better knowledge than us, outsiders.

But it does not go unnoticed that you are literally putting daily your life on the line on a daily basis living among these redneck Christian extremists in a deep-red state. Now I understand that these Yazidi women are just whining. What you are going through is the real danger.

In countries with weak rule of law, or places where rule of law is simply nonexistent, atrocities are easier to commit.

A lion roaming free in the savanna is very dangerous, yet one caged in the zoo is just a curiosity. Despite the setting, a lion is still a lion, given a chance it will tear you apart and eat you when it’s hungry.

A lot of religious fundamentalists are capable of violence. Put them in USA where rule of law exists, and their action would be muted. They are caged. Put them in a lawless setting and they are free to do as they wish, like in Iraq and Syria.

I am member of several U.S. gun forums, naturally dominated by conservative types. I know what they’re thinking and wanting to do, given a chance. In case you miss it, these are the people with multiple guns.

 

[centurion]

@Nimbus
So in Indonesia, we have options a)rule of law takes roots or b)strongman government? Does it look like moving to option b?

 

[centurion]

I assume this is your source. The article mentions that 69% of the respondents had heard of the FPI. This means that 1 out of 3 in their sample group had never even heard of FPI. Where did they find these people?! Chances are big that those who had heard of the organisation and responded to be 'in favour' know very little about the organisation and it's objectives and goals.
The FPI is known for thrashing bars during the month of ramadan. I can imagine a significant amount of the above respondents thinks that is not a bad thing (or maybe even favourable).
But what about the FPI's intentions to implement sharia? And that the leader pledged allegiance to ISIS?
There is no way that 43% of Indonesians agree with this. Great Survey by SMRC. Not.

Addit:
The title of the article "Survei SMRC: 43 Persen Orang Suka FPI" is misleading. Since it is 43% of the 69% that has heard of the FPI that like the organisation.

Actually, 72% of Indonesian Muslims support sharia according to PEW.

Muslims and Islam: Key findings in the U.S. and around the world

Muslims are the fastest-growing religious group in the world. Here are some questions and answers about their public opinions and demographics.

www.pewresearch.org

Some researchers point that support of sharia law as official law in the country is only in the domain of private law, but not corporal punishment. Maybe it is true, maybe not. At the same time, ISIS support was low, 4%.

Seven in 10 Indonesian Muslims want sharia law: Pew study - National - The Jakarta Post

More than 70 percent of Indonesian Muslims are supportive of sharia law and want it to be a legal code in the country with the worldâs largest Muslim population, according to a study by the US-based Pew Research Center

www.thejakartapost.com

 

[Nimbus]

@Nimbus
So in Indonesia, we have options a)rule of law takes roots or b)strongman government? Does it look like moving to option b?

Nobody knows. The point is that in Indonesia the rule of law is often a little more than lip service, so FPI is more free to wreak havoc. A similar organization in USA has to act less directly, or it will be investigated by the FBI and prosecuted by the federal government.

 

[Pak Tani]

Actually, 72% of Indonesian Muslims support sharia according to PEW.

Of course, most muslims will say to be in favour of sharia because that is what they believe to be the holy law. But when push comes to shove, and it's time for elections, most will vote for democratic parties like PDI and others. Only 12% of the seats in the house of representatives is occupied by conservative islamic parties. This number has been declining ever since 2004.

 

[Nimbus]

Actually, 72% of Indonesian Muslims support sharia according to PEW.

Muslims and Islam: Key findings in the U.S. and around the world

Muslims are the fastest-growing religious group in the world. Here are some questions and answers about their public opinions and demographics.

www.pewresearch.org

Some researchers point that support of sharia law as official law in the country is only in the domain of private law, but not corporal punishment. Maybe it is true, maybe not. At the same time, ISIS support was low, 4%.

Seven in 10 Indonesian Muslims want sharia law: Pew study - National - The Jakarta Post

More than 70 percent of Indonesian Muslims are supportive of sharia law and want it to be a legal code in the country with the worldâs largest Muslim population, according to a study by the US-based Pew Research Center

www.thejakartapost.com

Let’s go with the definitive poll: the election.

In the first democratic election of 1999, Islamic parties won 37.78% of the votes. It dipped to the lowest point in 2009 at 28.76%, recovered slightly in 2014, then went down again to 30.05% in the last election. If I plot a chart the trend is definitely down, not up.

This is a reflection of the will of more than 100 million Indonesians, not a Pew poll of a thousand or two respondents.

 

[centurion]

@Pak Tani
@Nimbus
Then we have nothing to worry about. The future looks bright according to you, despite regular, or increased enforcement of blasphemy laws on minorities mostly and increased harassment of gays.

But I think Mr. Prabowo, supported by FPI, absorbed many of these votes(2019 he was 12,5%), so you do not see them in totality. For presidential elections even Jokowi had to take a cleric for the vice-president to counterbalance that influence. So the mainstream parties had to become more religious-oriented/conservative.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

That 72% poll was so ridiculous, it was one of those polls done by people with a prior agenda, manipulating questions to get the answer they want. I think a figure of around 30% considering themselves to be really devout muslims makes more sense, but even of that figure there would be many who would be quite happy to do stuff like singing, dancing, driving, riding on the back of motorbikes, speaking to non-muslims, having a normal bank account and other haram things. I reckon the real hardcore who would want pure islam, caning, amputations, death to gays etc is less than 10%, probably much less than 10%.

 

[Nimbus]

That 72% poll was so ridiculous, it was one of those polls done by people with a prior agenda, manipulating questions to get the answer they want. I think a figure of around 30% considering themselves to be really devout muslims makes more sense, but even of that figure there would be many who would be quite happy to do stuff like singing, dancing, driving, riding on the back of motorbikes, speaking to non-muslims, having a normal bank account and other haram things. I reckon the real hardcore who would want pure islam, caning, amputations, death to gays etc is less than 10%, probably much less than 10%.

More than half of that 30% includes fairly moderate Islamic parties like PKB and PAN, parties that do not seek to impose syariah nor to establish a Muslim caliphate.