The government has just thrown the book at FPI.

[Helpful Herbert]

Jakarta Court Verdict Hands Rizieq Shihab 4 Years Jail Time

Rizieq Shihab had been given a court verdict of 4 years imprisonment by the East Jakarta district court.

en.tempo.co

 

[dafluff]

Jakarta Court Verdict Hands Rizieq Shihab 4 Years Jail Time

Rizieq Shihab had been given a court verdict of 4 years imprisonment by the East Jakarta district court.

en.tempo.co

There are masses of people demonstrating because of this right now in Jakarta.

 

[HappyMan]

It's strange... I was talking to a really conservative person recently and he said that Indonesia was becoming less free, in terms of speech. I had thought that he was talking about the new "being rude to the president" law, but he was cool to the topic and later told me about the great unity that european Muslims had displayed when a prophet was blasphemed. Same guy was talking about how Americans are too free because there are no religious laws.
Ya know, I just couldn't make it all fit together. Perhaps this FPI case is what he was thinking of as suppression of speech. The levels of cognitive dissonance I see in the world just mystify me.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

I think keeping him locked up until after the next election was pretty much the required result, and as usually the judiciary delivers the required result.

 

[Vulgarian]

Four years for not telling the truth about your covid test? I'm certainly no fan of "Briziek" but this seems like the law being used as a cudgel.

A couple of years ago, the cries that the ulema were being criminalised were fatuous. They could make a much stronger claim about this case and I worry about an increasingly authoritarian domestic policy, as well as the possibility of a populist, religious backlash.

 

[Nimbus]

It's strange... I was talking to a really conservative person recently and he said that Indonesia was becoming less free, in terms of speech. I had thought that he was talking about the new "being rude to the president" law, but he was cool to the topic and later told me about the great unity that european Muslims had displayed when a prophet was blasphemed. Same guy was talking about how Americans are too free because there are no religious laws.
Ya know, I just couldn't make it all fit together. Perhaps this FPI case is what he was thinking of as suppression of speech. The levels of cognitive dissonance I see in the world just mystify me.

They are so self-centered in their world outlook that they can only see their own viewpoint. Christian evangelicals in USA are fighting for the right to discriminate against LGBTQ people, arguing that it’s part of religious freedom. They want the unfettered freedom to practice their religion fully, even if it means discriminating others who don’t share their belief.

In short, it’s freedom if it suits them, it’s not if it doesn’t.

 

[HappyMan]

They are so self-centered in their world outlook that they can only see their own viewpoint. Christian evangelicals in USA are fighting for the right to discriminate against LGBTQ people, arguing that it’s part of religious freedom. They want the unfettered freedom to practice their religion fully, even if it means discriminating others who don’t share their belief.

In short, it’s freedom if it suits them, it’s not if it doesn’t.

But, and maybe this is me wearing my own blinders, that does not make sense to anyone who stops for even a moment to consider things from the other side. These people are not all stupid and they are not all lacking in empathy. You could give them a hypothetical situation analogous to their own and get a more consistent answer than what you have written (which does seem accurate).

Does it just work off of tribalism?

 

[Nimbus]

But, and maybe this is me wearing my own blinders, that does not make sense to anyone who stops for even a moment to consider things from the other side. These people are not all stupid and they are not all lacking in empathy. You could give them a hypothetical situation analogous to their own and get a more consistent answer than what you have written (which does seem accurate).

Does it just work off of tribalism?

To an alarmingly large segment of America, it’s plain tribalism. Of course they always couch it in more politically correct terms, but there is no doubt in my mind that tribalism is the driving force. Trump becomes popular not because he is particularly pious or decent, he is popular because he actively hurts the other side.

To quote Roosevelt on Somoza: “He’s a bastard, but he’s our bastard.” My conservative friends and relatives often say “You don’t have to invite the guy for dinner” to justify voting for their own bastards.

What’s interesting is the often complete disconnect between the personal and ideological spheres. Living in a deeply red state, I know many people who are personally kind and outstanding, but who holds patently ridiculous and ignorant political beliefs. They are nice and kind to black people around them, yet somehow they think BLM is a pro-criminal socialist endeavor.

 

[rabbit_39]

They are nice and kind to black people around them, yet somehow they think BLM is a pro-criminal socialist endeavor.

I can relate to this myself seeing some of the news and stories to what happened to some of my friends on both sides of the fence. When specific people carrying the torch for BLM is forcing that torch on others, it can get divisive. I'd be against BLM (at least for that particular moment) if the protesters are forcing me to join them as I'm going by their protest on the sidewalk for example. the same way I'd be against the Patriot Prayer protests if they forced me to join them as I walk past by their protest.

 

[Nimbus]

The

I can relate to this myself seeing some of the news and stories to what happened to some of my friends on both sides of the fence. When specific people carrying the torch for BLM is forcing that torch on others, it can get divisive. I'd be against BLM (at least for that particular moment) if the protesters are forcing me to join them as I'm going by their protest on the sidewalk for example. the same way I'd be against the Patriot Prayer protests if they forced me to join them as I walk past by their protest.

PNW is unique. It’s one of the few places where there’s a militant hardliner on both sides. That’s why the Proud Boys and their kind like to visit and provoke clashes.

I’ve been a protester before, and it is virtually guaranteed that no movement will ever have 100% control. If it has total control, it’s a militaristic organization, not a movement. There are always opportunistic criminals taking advantage of the situation, and there is never a shortage of angry idiots. Lack of perfection doesn’t automatically invalidate the message.

My issue is with people who insist that problems with the police are anomalies, yet problems with BLM are universal. That’s plain prejudice.

 

[centurion]

@Nimbus
You sometimes try to frame Evangelicals as similar to FPI. This would be a false equivalency.
Evangelicals are not throwing LGBTQ members from buildings, nor any of their dogma or wider or extreme interpretation of their religion requires it. I am not Christian, for disclosure.

 

[HappyMan]

@Nimbus
You sometimes try to frame Evangelicals as similar to FPI. This would be a false equivalency.
Evangelicals are not throwing LGBTQ members from buildings, nor any of their dogma or wider or extreme interpretation of their religion requires it. I am not Christian, for disclosure.

Straight from the Bible, Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." Some people do not consider this verse as requiring interpretation. It is pretty clear, really.

The fire and brimstone Literalists are generally less evangelical. They do exist though.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

You sometimes try to frame Evangelicals as similar to FPI.

Yes, agreed, FPI are on a completely different level. For example abuse of the blasphemy law to get people they don't like jailed.
For the record I think 4 years is harsh for that specific offence, but if all the other offences, lack of contrition and prior jail terms are considered, it is very lenient indeed! Definitely one law for that group and another for the rest of us.

I remember people trying to compare Al Qaeda to the Westboro Baptist Church back in the day. I mean one of them blows up thousands of people a year, the other spends its time annoying people by holding up placards at funerals.

 

[snpark]

Blah blah

Thank god I'm atheist

 

[Nimbus]

@Nimbus
You sometimes try to frame Evangelicals as similar to FPI. This would be a false equivalency.
Evangelicals are not throwing LGBTQ members from buildings, nor any of their dogma or wider or extreme interpretation of their religion requires it. I am not Christian, for disclosure.

The FPI is not killing LGBTQ members either. The worst that the FPI did was shooting at some cops (and missed).

It is a very apt comparison, because both are hardline fundamentalists. Same crap different religion. Given the chance both seek to secure the most freedom for themselves, at the expense of everyone else’s.

I’m not saying all Christians are like that, just like not all Muslims are FPI. The thing is that Evangelicals are a very powerful political force in USA. Despite the concept of separation of church and state enshrined in the US constitution, today religious schools are eligible to receive taxpayer money. This is the equivalent of a pesantren receiving government funding in Indonesia.

U.S. Supreme Court endorses taxpayer funds for religious schools

The U.S. Supreme Court narrowed the separation of church and state in a major ruling on Tuesday by endorsing Montana tax credits that helped pay for students to attend religious schools, a decision paving the way for more public funding of faith-based institutions.

www.reuters.com

They (evangelicals) are in constant war with the secular educational system, because public schools do not reinforce their religion. They are actively seeking to defund public schools through the voucher program, diverting taxpayer money from purely secular education to whatever school the parents want to attend (usually religious).

It’s a preposterous proposition, but it’s gaining traction due to their influence. Imagine if the same principle is applied to the police, you’ll get a tax voucher that you can spend on private security instead of going to the local police department. That will never fly.

 

[fastpitch17]

Religion in the US. Tax it. Tax it all.

 

[centurion]

@Helpful Herbert
I correct myself, you are right. But no witch was burnt from 1804 ( I think in South America was the last-somebody correct if have other data) nor gays been executed or stoned for a long time, probably from Middle Ages in the Western World (North-South America, Europe, and similar countries).

@Nimbus
I was precise in my wording. FPI does support extreme interpretation-ISIS, which supports, as a mainstream, throwing LGBTQ from buildings. Evangelical Christians do not do that. It is not the same crap different religion-false equivalency again. The degree of extremism and will for violence and annihilation is different, in favor of FPI and their sympathizers.

But you are right, some more devoted/extreme Christians do not sell wedding cakes to gay couples.

 

[Nimbus]

@Nimbus
I was precise in my wording. FPI does support extreme interpretation-ISIS, which supports, as a mainstream, throwing LGBTQ from buildings. Evangelical Christians do not do that. It is not the same crap different religion-false equivalency again. The degree of extremism and will for violence and annihilation is different, in favor of FPI and their sympathizers.

But you are right, some more devoted/extreme Christians do not sell wedding cakes to gay couples.

America is about to have a taxpayer-funded bifurcated education system that promotes a particular religion, and you worry about cake. That’s cute.

So you think American evangelicals are beyond advocating death penalty for gay people? Guess again.

Globalizing Hatred - Harvard Political Review

Though nearly a decade has passed since the most prominent interventions by American evangelicals, LGBT individuals in Uganda continue to face intense persecution stemming from the rhetoric once used by these evangelicals.

harvardpolitics.com

They can’t do it easily in USA, but they promote it globally.

U.S. Christian groups spent $280m fighting LGBT+ rights, abortion overseas

Right-wing U.S. groups have put more than $280 million into campaigns against LGBT+ rights and abortion worldwide since 2007, almost $90 million of which focused on Europe, according to a report on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

 

[HappyMan]

The whole "Christianity doesn't condone violence against x" argument ignores a couple of thousand years of history during which people who defined themselves as Christians behaved very violently against all sorts of things/people all across Europe, in the name of the church.

People believe what they believe, ya know? The only monolithic religions I know of are still small and new enough to be called cults. It's entirely possible for Bob to believe in a violent "I came not to bring peace, but the sword" brand of Christianity and Frank to believe in a pacifist "keep turning those cheeks" version of Islam.

Christian terrorism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The real difference, to my mind, is the rule of law and weight of history in the States. So, there are different methods at play than what the FPI uses, more lawyers and less lawlessness, but for some the goals are the same, to “make everyone do what they are supposed to do and believe what they are supposed to believe, just like the book says“.

Just as a bonus, there were quite a number of evangelical "prophets" who prophesied that something would happen in January to keep #45 as the anointed president. There were even ones who dated their prophecy for the sixth of January. There were ones who said that believers needed to show up at the Capitol on the sixth to see that the Lord's will be done. There are still a couple out there prophesying #45's eminent return to his place as president... To my mind, repeatedly prophesying the violent overthrow of the US Gov is borderline insurrection. If you want to see excerpts of these "prophets", you can check out the Holy Koolaid channel on YouTube.

 

[HappyMan]

I was precise in my wording. FPI does support extreme interpretation-ISIS, which supports, as a mainstream, throwing LGBTQ from buildings. Evangelical Christians do not do that.

Pastors Praise Anti-Gay Massacre in Orlando, Prompting Outrage (Published 2016)

One preacher received a torrent of denunciation when he said, “The tragedy is that more of them didn’t die.”

www.nytimes.com

You are right in that they are not evangelicals. A lot of the fundamentalists are Independent Baptists (my old crowd). No "happy clapping" for them.