Shock: No working permit as spouse of Indo.Wife ?

[fastpitch17]

No need for confrontations. No need to pull your hair out. No need to waste time. You just need to be firm at the start and go forward on their right foot.

You must be a miracle maker.

 

[IndoTom]

Hello,
I’m new here because I need your help and advice.

I’ve been browsing the internet now for hours and still couldn't find an answer.


First my story. I wanna make it as short as possible:
I’m 28 years old from Germany and 1,5 years ago I met a woman from Indonesia (on an internet chat). I visited Indonesia last January for 1 month to meet her and her family to really wanna make sure if I want to marry her. Everything was great and we decided to get married (Yes we have the same religion). Of course it was not that casual, we’ve been talking every day and we are sure that we wanna be together but thats not the topic here now.


Initially the plan was to live in Germany and some years later move to Indonesia. During the past months we figured out that it makes no sense that we live in Germany due to the ridiculously high costs of living and some other things that would bother us here. For us it would be much better to live in Indonesia for many personal reasons and not even waste time and money here in Germany including the visa procedure.

I already have saved up enough money to buy a house in Indonesia and I’ve been learning Bahasa Indonesia for some moths. So I thought that I was almost set, I just wanted to wait until the Corona crisis is over and then I would be ready to move there.


Now my problem:
I found out that I cannot legally work there even if I’m married to her. I found out quite late because I have never thought of that there would be a problem. From Europe I’m used to that there are no restrictions in terms of working when you are married to a citizen, so I naively never wasted any thoughts on that.

One of the main reasons why I wanted to move to Indonesia was because I wanted to open a small business as a freelancer. I don’t think it is important what exactly because if I’m not allowed to legally work there, there might not even a point in working there at all because I probably have to work for many many years to come and I might have to change my profession or whatever I wanna do there. But under such circumstances I cannot plan to stay there for the rest of my life and earn money that way. It might work on the short term but it has no sustainability.

I wanna live normally with my house and wife and work. I don’t leave my country to have a more complicated live that I already have here.

Yes I have read that it’s like a grey zone to be a freelancer but seriously, I cannot build my future on ‘being in a grey zone and stay inconspicuous as possible’. I just cannot leave everything behind and start over under such circumstances. My business that I wanna do can’t work under such conditions and it’s not the way I wanna life.
I wanted to move to Indonesia to start a new life and do the things that I cannot do here but now I found out this.

Has anyone help or advice for me?

You have much more experience and I bet I’m not the first person facing this dilemma.


I don’t know it feels like my dream shattered because I was really looking forward to moving and living there.
How risky is this all?


Of course I still wanna marry this woman but this all is not going to make it easier for us.

Hi Magnum, I am happy that you have found a good woman and want to take the relationship to the next level. A quick background about me. I have lived in Indonesia twice for a total of 4 years. Things didn't work out for me in Indonesia the first time as I expected, so I moved back home after 2 years. After retirement my wife and I decided to move to Indonesia because as you mentioned, the cost of living is cheaper. There are a few important points I want to briefly discuss. They are Cost of Living, Developing Country Status, Different Culture, Property Ownership, Jobs and Working as a foreigner, and Having Kids. These are the areas which will be completely alien and perhaps backwards to you as an outsider from a settled country.

The first and most important thing which encompases all the above points is the word "Complicated". As a tourist, things may seem easy on the surface, but living here is very, very, complicated. The cost of living is cheap because the salaries are low and government services minimal as compared to settled nations. But somethings that foreigners typically enjoy back home are 2x - 3x times more expensive in Indonesia. The money you earn in Germany goes a long way here, but when your job back home is gone, then you may have trouble. Indonesia is a relatively new democracy and a developing country. As such the laws (rules) are not always enforced. This frustrates people alot. Corruption and bribery are common, especially anything regarding government services. The culture here is very thick, to the point of preceeding rules, common sense, or religion. Property (land / house) ownership for foreigners is strickly forbidden. Everything will have to be in your wife's name. There are lease schemes or condo ownership with certain rules but I would not recommend them. The housing market and practices in Indonesia are very different. Working in Indonesia is COMPLICATED and a work visa is needed every year, sponsored by a company. If you have kids with your indonesian wife then you can forget the cheap cost of living aspect. You wouldn't want to send them to a local public school. International schools are very expensive, perhaps $10k - $30k USD per year per kid. Certainly there are benefits here but you need to understand that this is not the EU. In general foreigners trying to settle here will encounter many difficulties. My advice, if you still consider moving to Indonesia is to take a 3- 6 month trip to see the real life there. Keep your home in Germany and in the future if things are going well, then rent an apartment in Indonesia so you can commute between both countries. Better to try living and working in both counties and see which is best in the end. It may sound complicated to have homes in two countries but it may be the best solution in the short term. Do the immigration for your future wife in Germany and do your temporary resident paperwork in Indonesia. If you have more detailed questions feel free to message me.

 

[Magnum3455]

Thank you all for your responses

@fastpitch17

You really need to do your homework for what things cost in the various areas.

Yes, I am aware that it’s not everywhere necessarily cheap.

Really, you need to prepare yourself much more before ever thinking about working here.

I did not say that I want to move there next week. One of the reasons why I came to this forum is to get more knowledge and understanding.
Of course I have to be prepared and think everything through very carefully.

Do your homework. All of it. This isn't paradise no matter what the tourist ministry says. jmho

I’m also aware of that and that a vacation has nothing do do with the real life there.

Just get married in the EU. If her parents are financially sound, they can attend. A ticket for her will be cheaper than a wedding here. A lot.

Why would a wedding be so expensive? We don’t marry for show and impress other people how big the wedding is.

Read some past post about family influences.

I know that can be a problem especially for me who is not used to interfering family.


@snpark

At least live together first in a rented place. And even with a house. Rent it then see what's wrong with it and then make an offer. Never buy a house without living in it first

This is a very good tip I will definitely do it that way in case I really go there.


@Puspawarna

If your thought processes are so simplistic that you can lump all "western women" into one category, you really shouldn't be contemplating marriage

Like R Cameron already said:

I don’t say that ALL women in the west are bad.

I also did not complain when people here indicated that this women wants my money just because she is Indonesian.


@cestpasmyjob

Magnum, are you also very religious?

I don’t wanna make it a religious debate but yes, you are right, it does play a role. I am religious enough that the parents are ok the way it is. They never asked anything about my practices.


@IndoTom

Hi Magnum, I am happy that you have found a good woman and want to take the relationship to the next level

I am also happy for that despite all the difficulties that come along with it. (I hope she will never read this because she would say that I can leave if she means difficulties to me haha)

As a tourist, things may seem easy on the surface

You are absolutely right there. As a tourist you don’t commute through traffic everyday and get everything done in the hotels for you. But I really saw and especially tried to figure out how the locals live there. I went to ares where no tourists go to see what the housing, commuting, neighbourhoods etc really are. But seriously, where is it not complicated to live these days anymore? Even in the so called good countries like Ireland, England or USA there are tons of homeless people.

but when your job back home is gone, then you may have trouble

But I cannot stay just for a job because this company I work for also does not care about me. A job is something I do temporarily for money. And even if I go back to Germany without job, it would also not mean the end of the world. I could find a new one if I’m not going to be to picky.

Certainly there are benefits here but you need to understand that this is not the EU

Yes, true. But if I want to live like a westerner I have to stay in Europe. I know that I cannot have the same quality of housing, healthcare, infrastructure for just a fragment of the price.





My opinion about risks of marriage generally:
A marriage can always fail, I’m aware of that. All those 100 thousands of people that get divorced every year go into their marriage to stay together forever. So this is not a matter of the nationality. If 2 people match they can adapt to some different habits of each other.
Yes, I can loose my house. Yes, I can loose all my money and end up homeless. But this can and does happen regularly everywhere in the world. I cannot guaranty that this marriage that I intend will last forever, it would be naiv to say, but I know that this women is the best woman that I have ever met and I’m sure I will never meet a better woman FOR ME. You might have other opinions I understand and accept.


About Indonesia:
It is not that I woke up one morning and thought ‘Hey, why not moving to Indonesia’. I've been thinking about it for months and I have weighted out the advantages and the disadvantages. I know that some things there suck. It’s loud, crowded, there are holes in the street in which you just can fall and break your back, it’s not hygienic for the most part and much more. But it has also many many good sites for me.
In case I go there, I will have for sure a plan to go back if things would not work out. It’s not that I think I can go there naively and everything would be easy. If it was like that, everyone would want to go there.



Ok now to my initial question. As far as I understood now there are several ways that would allow me to work there.
I can definitely forget to work in any company you made that very clear.
I can’t have an official work permit but working as a freelancer is a grey zone and tolerated.
I can work in my wife’s business and on the paper she would be my employer?
I can have my own (small) business but it would be in my wife’s name?

 

[beebop]

Well, once youve lived in indonesia for 5 uninterupted years, you can apply to become indonesian and do whatever you want. But you will have to give up your own nationality. I personally dont care to lose my nationality because my country is a s#it box.
I did battle at first, but i did buy land on my wifes name and did start business under my wifes name. And it worked out for me. Were 11 years happily married now, but ofcourse if you follow my advice, you could get burned because you only just met her and she could easily screw you over and you would have no rights.

 

[ChrisTex]

Beebop you are alive!

 

[HappyMan]

I can work in my wife’s business and on the paper she would be my employer?
I can have my own (small) business but it would be in my wife’s name?

These two go together. You make the business which she owns a majority share of, then she employs you.
Freelancing as a grey area might be something like her setting up a freelance accounting business, in which you "help" to do the accounting work (as you are a trained accountant and she doesn't know how to use a spreadsheet).

 

[IndoTom]

These two go together. You make the business which she owns a majority share of, then she employs you.
Freelancing as a grey area might be something like her setting up a freelance accounting business, in which you "help" to do the accounting work (as you are a trained accountant and she doesn't know how to use a spreadsheet).

Just keep in mind that the yearly employment permit is approximately $1200 USD and filled with a lot of government bureaucracy. Perhaps better to just be a consultant which I believe you don't need a working permit if you have a Indonesia residence permit (ITAS).

 

[Jaime C]

Just keep in mind that the yearly employment permit is approximately $1200 USD and filled with a lot of government bureaucracy. Perhaps better to just be a consultant which I believe you don't need a working permit if you have a Indonesia residence permit (ITAS).

I don't think he’s talking about a job that requires a yearly permit.

 

[Puspawarna]

I don’t say that ALL women in the west are bad.

Look at what you wrote: She is 100 times better then western women I met so far.

If you'd just said "She is 100 time better than anyone else I've ever dated" you would be fine.

But no, you had to mention that those other women were WESTERN. It is difficult to read that without suspecting that you have fallen prey to the stereotype that Western women are pushy and demanding, while Asian women are meek and obedient. This stereotype does no one any favors - not men of any nationality, not women of any nationality.

As to the expense of a wedding ... be sure you talk to your fiancee and her family about their expectations. Maybe they don't care if you have a modest, inexpensive event. It's quite common for Indonesian weddings to be a huge celebrations, however, so you would be wise to discuss it.

 

[dafluff]

Ok now to my initial question. As far as I understood now there are several ways that would allow me to work there.
I can definitely forget to work in any company you made that very clear.
I can’t have an official work permit but working as a freelancer is a grey zone and tolerated.
I can work in my wife’s business and on the paper she would be my employer?
I can have my own (small) business but it would be in my wife’s name?

The law does not permit any Indonesian entity to employ a foreign worker without a permit called an IMTA. (we can go down the rabbit hole of whether foreign spouses are counted as foreign workers later).

So here are some possibilities:

1. You find a job with an local company, who then deals with all the paperwork etc.
2. You work for a company abroad that does not have an office in Indonesia, remotely.
3. You "help out" in your wife's business in an unofficial manner. Your wife's business can not be a limited liability company, only personal company. (No PT, only CV and UD). In this case, remember on paper, that is legally, you do not work for your wife, nor do you own the business.
4. Any sort of freelancing that does not have an employer. This is often given with a caveat of "don't be too conspicuous", etc. This however, really depends on how comfortable you are with fighting for your rights and/or how your relationship with local officials are in Indonesia. Freelancing has been widely socialized as an acceptable way for foreign spouses to earn money. However there will be undoubtedly "enterprising" officials (and even random people), who will try to persuade you to donate to them.

 

[IndoTom]

But no, you had to mention that those other women were WESTERN. It is difficult to read that without suspecting that you have fallen prey to the stereotype that Western women are pushy and demanding, while Asian women are meek and obedient. This stereotype does no one any favors - not men of any nationality, not women of any nationality.

Men are from Mars, and woman are from Venus. To infer that they are from the same planet is surely blasphemy!

Perhaps to be the best in politically correctness, we should say "the creature I met is 100 times better than any other life form I ever dated". This removes gender, race, ethnicity, and age. Maybe we can even make life more ambiguous so that it includes things such as rocks, elements, and atoms. The world is too politically correct for me. I'm taking names and updating my Christmas gift list accordingly.

 

[Puspawarna]

Perhaps to be the best in politically correctness, we should say "the creature I met is 100 times better than any other life form I ever dated".

Dismissing any argument against stereotyping as mere "political correctness" is a favorite tactic of the Trump crowd. And yet you have such an agreeable sig line.

 

[harryopal1]

Total prejudice is basically where one assesses the next person he or she meets based simply on their sex, ethnicity, skin colour, religion or whatever. There are of course cultural and factual patterns that may "generally" be applied to any of those groups. For example, it might be that Chinese eat more noodles than westerners or that travel experiences indicate that Chinese as a group are not great tourists being pushy and argumentative. Black Americans and indigenous Australians are likely to spend more time in gaol than is the pattern for white people. Western women with more developed feminist attitudes may seem to be more pushy than Asian women. (At least superficially but that is a book in itself.)

So these generalizations are not without substance. The important element is whether one just falls on these generalizations and is thereafter prejudiced against that particular group. As civilized creatures we need to bear in mind that the next person we meet may not conform to that prejudicial cultural pattern. Every individual deserves the right to enjoy their lives without being discriminated against because of these kind of generalizations that are the basis for unacceptable prejudice.

I am sure Magnum 3455 did not start his thread to be set up for a critical examination of his personal outlook on life, love and living but in these sensitive times he certainly set himself up for a backlash with the comment, " She is 100 times better then western women I met so far. " Of course it may be that he is not prejudiced and has met a saintly woman who is "...100 times better then western women I met so far." But at first glance it sounds like taking the stereotype as proof that the generalizations are true about all Asian women and hence the understandable reactions in this forum.

In a world now where everyone is somewhere else and people are much more inclined to stand up for their rights I guess we all have to be much more mindful of what we say.

That said, I feel sure that most people on the forum are trying to help Magnum understand the many problems with which he is confronted in aspiring to a new life with a new Indonesian wife in Indonesia. So Magnum, good luck but step lightly in forums as if you are walking on broken glass.

 

[Balifrog]

Why would a wedding be so expensive? We don’t marry for show and impress other people how big the wedding is.

I don't think you will be in complete control of that...
Better double check with your future Mrs AND her parents ...

 

[gemima]

he certainly set himself up for a backlash

There has hardly been a backlash, you exagerate. I have no problem with Op having a preference for Asian women (or Indonesian women - or whatever kind of woman), I do think his comment gives us an insight into his reasoning for this marriage and life plan that does raise alarm bells around his maturity and I think thats all that Puspawarna is really getting at. I personally feel like he is being a bit foolish to consider marriage with someone he has spent 1 month with and to have put her on such a high pedestal already. But what do I know - maybe she is saintly and only has the best intentions towards Op.

 

[harryopal1]

There has hardly been a backlash, you exagerate. ......."

Yes, "reaction" rather than "backlash" would have been better.

 

[dafluff]

That said, I feel sure that most people on the forum are trying to help Magnum understand the many problems with which he is confronted in aspiring to a new life with a new Indonesian wife in Indonesia. So Magnum, good luck but step lightly in forums as if you are walking on broken glass.

The "western women" comment feels very much like the OP has a far too idealized vision of Indonesian women. I think the forum is trying to help him by suggesting he manages his expectations...

Secondly, if a few comments should be treated as "walking on broken glass", I'm sure moving to Indonesia, during a pandemic at that, should be treated as "walking on an industrial metal shredder".

 

[Magnum3455]

OMG ok I apologise for this statement with the western women.
I should have said: She is better IN MY OPINION than the western women I got to know so far in my life. I did not think much about this statement it was maybe just a quick reaction to those ‘she wants your money’ comments. I never meant to offend anyone, sorry again. I expressed myself wrongly there.

As to the expense of a wedding ... be sure you talk to your fiancee and her family about their expectations.

Yes I have already. It will be only small and cheap because neither I, nor she wants a big pompous wedding. The only condition is that they want it to take place in Indonesia, in their house. Their will be only the family and some close friends. I accept that because they raised her 26 years very well and would not just let her fly to Europe on her own without being married first. This in the house would only be the muslim ceremony, the legal wedding would take place in Germany because we first wanna live in Germany for a little while.



But please, now no religious debate. I am aware of EVERYTHING already. Before you ask: Yes, Im am circumsized, yes, I converted to Islam BEFORE I met her. But anyways, religion is not a big topic in our relationship. She does not has that deep knowledge about Islam and often I prove her wrong when she says this or that is right or false. Sure, the parents would not allow her to marry a non-muslim because it would be embarrassing for them in their social circles. But still, they are not too devoted and never asked me if I prayed or not.
Let this marriage please be my concern. I’ve been thinking about all of it for over one year. It is not that I just quickly decided because I was in the mood one day. We had hours of discussions about what I accept and what not and we found our compromises.



Back to my topic: My future wife asked the immigration office via email. Here is what they answered.
The red text is their response
(I translated it via Google from Indonesian into English)



Sincerely,
Good morning. My name is XXXXX. I would like to ask the following questions regarding the KITAS residence permit in Indonesia for foreigners if they are legally married to an Indonesian citizen.

1. How long is the period of residence permit in Indonesia for foreigners with a KITAS marriage visa / joining the wife of an Indonesian citizen? - Can be chosen by yourself.

2. If the residence permit has expired or is about to expire, can the foreigner directly apply for a KITAS extension without having to leave Indonesia first? - Yes, you can

3. How long does it take for a foreigner to obtain a permanent / permanent residence permit (KITAP)? - 3 years of marriage

4. Are foreigners still allowed to work as freelancers (not working for companies) in Indonesia only by holding the KITAS marriage visa? - Yes, you can

5. What are the rights, obligations and prohibitions for foreigners holding a KITAS visa to marry an Indonesian citizen? - Can be read on the immigras website



Well, ok their answers are very short.
I remember that read in another thread here that it can never be fully trusted what the immigration office says.

 

[ChrisTex]

Why would a wedding be so expensive? We don’t marry for show and impress other people how big the wedding is.

Without know what religion either of you are, you have to factor in the ceremony and reception location. Plus, you have to think about how many people you want to invite. This is where it gets complicated. Long story short, it could bring shame to the family and those not invited(close family friends/other family members) will feel insulted. This is excluding the marriage proposal ceremony which might get more guest that you originally counted on showing up.

So you want to avoid the backlash as much as possible.

 

[Puspawarna]

Sure, the parents would not allow her to marry a non-muslim because it would be embarrassing for them in their social circles.

Overall it sounds to me like you are trying hard to be reasonable. I'm sure I speak for everyone in our little corner of the internet when I say I really do hope it works out well for you - both in terms of a happy marriage and a fulfilling, comfortable life whether you end up in Indonesia, Germany, or wherever.

However, it is good that you seem to be at least a little willing to listen to what people tell you. Because no good will come of making assumptions when you don't actually know all the facts. Your sentence above is a case in point. The parents' possible "embarrassment" is far from the most pressing reason why, if you were not a Muslim, you could not marry your girlfriend in Indonesia.

I will let people who are more knowledgeable than I am speak more definitively, but essentially: both Islamic religious law and Indonesian national law forbid a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim man. You could get married outside of Indonesia and have your marriage recognized, but you couldn't marry within Indonesia. This stuff is a big deal, and is at the core of the situation. Parental embarrassment is just a side-effect of all that - it is NOT what drives the whole situation.

(Also, I welcome corrections or refinement from other posters who can speak to this subject with more authority than I can. I only kinda sorta know what I am talking about when it comes to mixed marriages and religion.)