Nuclear submarines and regional security.

[Bob]

Wrong .... Chinese are business minded people.
But they are very dependant on trade routes for this. Hence the Belt and Road initiative. Partly over land (rail), partly over the seas.
Their increased presence in the SCS is related to the latter, in effect protect their maritime trade routes that are vital for their import (oil) and exports.
The Strait of Malacca being a typical example.
The world has seen how the US is able (and politically willing) to cut off a.country from international transport (Cuba, Venezuela, Iran...)
Hence they want a strong Navy to protect their trade routes.
I say "protect" ! They dont need 70 nuclear subs, as they dont intend to invade the US. Contrary to the US who is always ready to attack / invade anyone.

Concerning the state of the US, you make me smile...
USA has HUGE economic, racial, health (include mental health), gun addiction, and extremist biparty politics problems....
BTW, you are aware that of the 5 biggest banks in the world, 3 are Chinese ?

Ok, 06:30 , time for my morning swim !

Yes the Chinese are business minded, just as the British, French, Dutch, etc. were and are. That doesn’t mean they’re not imperialists. To think that they, or any nation with expansionist tendencies and a strong military, are benign is naive. So they ‘protect their trade routes’ by stealing and militarizing territory and fishing grounds? Who needs forts to ensure their trading rights? We’ve seen that movie before.
BTW the US didn’t blockade those three countries, they applied sanctions, against which fortifications have no effect.
Nice rant on the state of US society, but that has nothing to do with the price of eggs in China.

 

[Bob]

You know what I meant, the trouble I'm referring to is the current fighting between rival military factions which obliged many countries to evacuate their citizens and close their embassies. It's been the headline news for a week or so now.

Yes I know what you mean. It’s a tinderbox. There was no trouble there until the Wagner group got involved. Happy now?

 

[Dave70]

Yes I know what you mean. It’s a tinderbox. There was no trouble there until the Wagner group got involved. Happy now?

Wagner Group is present in Sudan since 2017 at the invitation of then president al-Bashir.

Russia buys the gold mined in Sudan, then process it at their own plant there. Why would Russia want trouble in Sudan? It will be detrimental to their interest, a conflict in Sudan is not beneficial to Russia. Why did the fighting broke out after the visit of Nuland? Just coincidence? Or Nuland is merely bearer of bad luck? I know it takes critical thinking, not everything reported by the Western media is credible.

 

[Dave70]

Yes the Chinese are business minded, just as the British, French, Dutch, etc. were and are. That doesn’t mean they’re not imperialists.

"I hate imperialism. I detest colonialism." a quote from Soekarno. What did he mean by imperialism? He meant countries which colonize another country and stole their wealth. Definitely, China is not an imperialist.

To think that they, or any nation with expansionist tendencies and a strong military, are benign is naive.

China doesn't have expansionist tendencies, but they have strong military. On the other hand, it is naive to think that the USA is benign.

So they ‘protect their trade routes’ by stealing and militarizing territory and fishing grounds? Who needs forts to ensure their trading rights?

China is stealing territories? Haven't you heard about "territorial and maritime disputes"? Disputes need dialogue to settle. If you say China is stealing Philippine territory, then the Philippines is also stealing Chinese territory. Both China and the Philippines are occupying disputed territory, stealing is not the right word.

The USA has many "forts" around the world. Can't China build theirs? Their only overseas military base is in Africa, and its to guard against piracy (especially the Somalia pirates). How about the USA? Why do they have so many? Who is the real threat to world peace?

 

[Bob]

Wagner Group is present in Sudan since 2017 at the invitation of then president al-Bashir.

Russia buys the gold mined in Sudan, then process it at their own plant there. Why would Russia want trouble in Sudan? It will be detrimental to their interest, a conflict in Sudan is not beneficial to Russia. Why did the fighting broke out after the visit of Nuland? Just coincidence? Or Nuland is merely bearer of bad luck? I know it takes critical thinking, not everything reported by the Western media is credible.

RSF and Wagner are partners. RSF wants more, or all, power, so they move against the Sudan government.
What do you think Nuland's visit triggered? Her being there or not would make no difference if the US was stirring trouble.

 

[Bob]

"I hate imperialism. I detest colonialism." a quote from Soekarno. What did he mean by imperialism? He meant countries which colonize another country and stole their wealth. Definitely, China is not an imperialist.

Tell the Tibetans, the Uyghurs, the Vietnamese, the Filipinos, etc.

China doesn't have expansionist tendencies, but they have strong military. On the other hand, it is naive to think that the USA is benign.

Why then are they expanding?

China is stealing territories? Haven't you heard about "territorial and maritime disputes"? Disputes need dialogue to settle. If you say China is stealing Philippine territory, then the Philippines is also stealing Chinese territory. Both China and the Philippines are occupying disputed territory, stealing is not the right word.

Horse manure. China lost its case before the Permanent Court of Arbitration but refuses to accept the decision and vacate the territory. How about 'illegally occupy' rather than 'steal'?

The USA has many "forts" around the world. Can't China build theirs? Their only overseas military base is in Africa, and its to guard against piracy (especially the Somalia pirates). How about the USA? Why do they have so many? Who is the real threat to world peace?

China or any other country can fortify their own territory or by agreement with host nations. Grabbing what's not theirs and fortifying it is a threat to peace. If the military posts China has built in the SCS are there to ensure freedom of navigation, why does PRC squawk so loudly when a western navy ship passes by?

 

[Balifrog]

So they ‘protect their trade routes’ by stealing and militarizing territory and fishing grounds? Who needs forts to ensure their trading rights? We’ve seen that movie before.
BTW the US didn’t blockade those three countries, they applied sanctions, against which fortifications have no effect.
Nice rant on the state of US society, but that has nothing to do with the price of eggs in China.

Hmmmm, how many overseas bases China has ? 2 or 3 ?
How many USA has ? And they are not shy to announce clearly what is their purpose....

The U.S. Has 750 Overseas Military Bases, and Continues to Build More to Encircle China​

Price of eggs in China ? I think you got the country wrong.....

$18 a dozen: how did America’s eggs get absurdly expensive?

Producers blame avian flu for the soaring costs, but one farmers’ group is airing accusations of price-gouging

www.google.com

 

[Balifrog]

So they ‘protect their trade routes’ by stealing and militarizing territory and fishing grounds? Who needs forts to ensure their trading rights? We’ve seen that movie before.
BTW the US didn’t blockade those three countries, they applied sanctions, against which fortifications have no effect.
Nice rant on the state of US society, but that has nothing to do with the price of eggs in China.

Hmmmm, how many overseas bases China has ? 2 or 3 ?
How many USA has ? And they are not shy to announce clearly what is their purpose....

The U.S. Has 750 Overseas Military Bases, and Continues to Build More to Encircle China​

Price of eggs in China ? I think you got the country wrong.....

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

China lost its case before the Permanent Court of Arbitration but refuses to accept the decision and vacate the territory. How about 'illegally occupy' rather than 'steal'?

The same court should maybe also look in the illegal seizure, occupation and colonization of the Golan heights by Israel ?

USA speaking about illegal invasion and illegal occupation.....hahahahaha
Vietnam, Panama, Iraq, Somalia.......

 

[fastpitch17]

China is pushing ahead with a planned military base in the UAE in a clear snub to the US, leaked papers say

The United Arab Emirates has come under pressure from ally the US to halt its military cooperation with China.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[harryopal1]

In Madagascar I watched in amazement as arriving Chinese came off their flight and just handed money to every local official on the way through the arrival procedures. China is busy buying and tying up resource access around the world and no hesitation in bribing officials to expedite the process. A friend in Madagascar told me his accountant had left to take up a job in the public service so he could take bribes.

Often development of these resource assets involved setting up veritable townships for incoming Chinese workers. Job opportunities for locals are not so great and certainly across Africa there is deep resentment and developing hatred amongst locals. Perhaps a small part of the price to pay to ensure the resources needed for the Chinese economy.

As an Australian it seems crazy to me that we have allowed massive Chinese buying up of food production and other resources. With one major dairy takeover the Chinese manager proudly announced how all the cows would be kept in barns. Animal welfare is always a contentions issue but not one that seems a high priority with China. One of the most bizarre buyouts has been the Chinese buying the port of Darwin. Seems bizarre as Australia is looking to have a larger military relationship with the US.

 

[Dave70]

Tell the Tibetans, the Uyghurs, the Vietnamese, the Filipinos, etc.

Tibet and Xinjiang are not their own country, they never were. So it’s not like they were colonized by China. Of course, if you talk to Tibetans/Uyghurs living abroad, they are probably anti-government exiles, and they will bad-mouth China. But if go to China and talk to them, it’s completely different. You may say that they are just afraid of speaking out. No, use your common sense, hear how they say it, and look at their body language. It’s sincere, and they are telling you the truth. Actually, some are angry and frustrated with the disinformation spreading in the Western media.

Now, Vietnam. China regarded its southern neighbor as a province, and it remained part of China for a thousand years. Read > https://newint.org/features/1991/02/05/simply

So which country was the first to colonize Vietnam? Answer: France. Read > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Indochina

And finally, the Philippines. China never colonized the Philippines. The Philippines was a Spanish colony before becoming a US colony.

Why then are they expanding?

Where and how are they expanding?

Horse manure. China lost its case before the Permanent Court of Arbitration but refuses to accept the decision and vacate the territory. How about 'illegally occupy' rather than 'steal'?

The PCA tribunal verdict is not legally binding for China. Why? Read this > https://europe.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2016-06/10/content_25667142.htm

BTW, did you know that the PCA is not part of the UN? The UN even made a statement stressing its separation from the PCA. The PCA just happen to rent space in the same building as the UN’s ICJ in the Hague, but the 2 organizations are not related.

Moreover, China and the Philippines were resolving the issue through bilateral negotiations, and while these negotiations were on-going, it is inappropriate to push this issue into arbitration.

China or any other country can fortify their own territory or by agreement with host nations. Grabbing what's not theirs and fortifying it is a threat to peace. If the military posts China has built in the SCS are there to ensure freedom of navigation, why does PRC squawk so loudly when a western navy ship passes by?

Did China grab any territory which is not theirs? NO. Disputed territory mean 2 or more countries are claiming the same territory. In other words, China believe its theirs, while the other party believe they own it. Was the territory occupied when China took control? The answer is also NO. Nobody was there at that time. But historically, China is saying the island is theirs. There is another island which China is saying is theirs but occupied by the Philippines. How come? Once there was an island with Taiwan troops stationed there. Then came a typhoon which destroyed their facilities, so the Taiwan troops left. After abandoning the island, the Philippines stationed their troops there. Since Taiwan is part of China, China is saying the island is theirs too. So it’s a disputed territory as well.

China is chasing away unauthorized foreign navy ships coming too close to their island facility, the same way the US will chase away unauthorized foreign navy ships from any of their military bases around the world. Nothing out of ordinary.

 

[Dave70]

In Madagascar I watched in amazement as arriving Chinese came off their flight and just handed money to every local official on the way through the arrival procedures.

Please advise where to watch it, I'm sure other forum members will be interested to watch it too. Is it on YouTube?

 

[centurion]

"Useful Idiot"
attributed to V.I. Lenin

 

[harryopal1]

Please advise where to watch it, I'm sure other forum members will be interested to watch it too. Is it on YouTube?

Not on youtube. I was at the airport myself. I am not in the habit of telling lies. This was a personal experience and my friend who lost his accountant I have know for many years.

 

[Bob]

Hmmmm, how many overseas bases China has ? 2 or 3 ?
How many USA has ? And they are not shy to announce clearly what is their purpose....

The U.S. Has 750 Overseas Military Bases, and Continues to Build More to Encircle China​

Price of eggs in China ? I think you got the country wrong.....

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

The same court should maybe also look in the illegal seizure, occupation and colonization of the Golan heights by Israel ?

USA speaking about illegal invasion and illegal occupation.....hahahahaha
Vietnam, Panama, Iraq, Somalia.......

It's not a zero sum game is it? It's possible for more than one party to be in the wrong. Just because Israel and the US (and France et al) have been so doesn't mean that PRC's not. The discussion's been about PRC's behavior. Anyone could mention another country behaving badly, going back to the Babylonians, but that has no bearing on the subject at hand.

 

[Bob]

Tibet and Xinjiang are not their own country, they never were. So it’s not like they were colonized by China. Of course, if you talk to Tibetans/Uyghurs living abroad, they are probably anti-government exiles, and they will bad-mouth China. But if go to China and talk to them, it’s completely different. You may say that they are just afraid of speaking out. No, use your common sense, hear how they say it, and look at their body language. It’s sincere, and they are telling you the truth. Actually, some are angry and frustrated with the disinformation spreading in the Western media.

Now, Vietnam. China regarded its southern neighbor as a province, and it remained part of China for a thousand years. Read > https://newint.org/features/1991/02/05/simply

So which country was the first to colonize Vietnam? Answer: France. Read > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Indochina

And finally, the Philippines. China never colonized the Philippines. The Philippines was a Spanish colony before becoming a US colony.



Where and how are they expanding?



The PCA tribunal verdict is not legally binding for China. Why? Read this > https://europe.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2016-06/10/content_25667142.htm

BTW, did you know that the PCA is not part of the UN? The UN even made a statement stressing its separation from the PCA. The PCA just happen to rent space in the same building as the UN’s ICJ in the Hague, but the 2 organizations are not related.

Moreover, China and the Philippines were resolving the issue through bilateral negotiations, and while these negotiations were on-going, it is inappropriate to push this issue into arbitration.



Did China grab any territory which is not theirs? NO. Disputed territory mean 2 or more countries are claiming the same territory. In other words, China believe its theirs, while the other party believe they own it. Was the territory occupied when China took control? The answer is also NO. Nobody was there at that time. But historically, China is saying the island is theirs. There is another island which China is saying is theirs but occupied by the Philippines. How come? Once there was an island with Taiwan troops stationed there. Then came a typhoon which destroyed their facilities, so the Taiwan troops left. After abandoning the island, the Philippines stationed their troops there. Since Taiwan is part of China, China is saying the island is theirs too. So it’s a disputed territory as well.

China is chasing away unauthorized foreign navy ships coming too close to their island facility, the same way the US will chase away unauthorized foreign navy ships from any of their military bases around the world. Nothing out of ordinary.

You're really dedicated to supporting your team regardless of what the facts may be.

 

[harryopal1]

Dave's correct line is that whatever China does is fair and honest and it is only the western powers and democracies which distort the truth and engage in corrupt and bad behaviour. I don't for a moment suggest western powers and democracies are scrupulously clean but it is a bit hard to take that China can do no wrong.

 

[Dave70]

You're really dedicated to supporting your team regardless of what the facts may be.

All I'm presenting are facts, prove me wrong if there are any inaccuracies.

 

[Dave70]

Dave's correct line is that whatever China does is fair and honest and it is only the western powers and democracies which distort the truth and engage in corrupt and bad behaviour. I don't for a moment suggest western powers and democracies are scrupulously clean but it is a bit hard to take that China can do no wrong.

Who said that "China can do no wrong"? China makes mistakes too because the country is run by humans. All humans make mistakes, don't forget that. If you say something negative about China that is true and correct, you may not hear from me. But if you say something untrue or wrong, you could be hearing from me pretty soon. Nevertheless, I'm not a "know it all" person. If there is something I don't know, I may ask for more details like for example I asked you about that incident in Madagascar.

 

[harryopal1]

Who said that "China can do no wrong"? China makes mistakes too because the country is run by humans. All humans make mistakes, don't forget that. If you say something negative about China that is true and correct, you may not hear from me. But if you say something untrue or wrong, you could be hearing from me pretty soon. Nevertheless, I'm not a "know it all" person. If there is something I don't know, I may ask for more details like for example I asked you about that incident in Madagascar.

And I replied. Scroll back. Interesting that you allow that China makes mistake. So enlighten us, what are some or the CCP's seriously bad mistakes and intrigues as we all agree are often made by western countries and democracies. Or does the CCP only make minor errors of judgement while intending to do good?