Ministry of Agriculture Announces Intention To Ban Dog Meat Trade

[snpark]

Vegetarians love animals so much that they eat all THEIR food - if we all became vegans, there would be no food for the animals and then they would all die anyway? But of cruel starvation. Not quickly and in glory served medium rare with some fries on the side

 

[Puspawarna]

That's something I did not think about which definitely make me pause. Although the domestication happened a long time ago, it should be discounted indeed.

What about cows or bulls used in the fields by farmers. Surely those do also end up on the plate once their usefulness has expired. It may be not on the level of bond between humans and dogs but isn't it unfair to be eaten after a lofe of service? This is clearly a grey area and your comments add an interesting twist to the discussion, at least for me.

In that case I think it boils down to how humanely things are done. An old cow is going to die anyway - and there is no sense in wasting food. I'd just like to see the animal dispatched without suffering, is all.

 

[Anglian]

In that case I think it boils down to how humanely things are done. An old cow is going to die anyway - and there is no sense in wasting food. I'd just like to see the animal dispatched without suffering, is all.

That is a good point puspa, but sadly we don’t treat animals well, Wisnu point about the chickens, thousands never see the light of day, just to lay eggs, or in huge dimly lit sheds to keep them quite, sows penned in so they don’t roll on the piglets, a dead piglet is a financial loss, we can have opinions, but sadly cannot do much, we don’t even think about it, it wasn’t till wisnu mentioned the chickens, I had totally forgot about how badly they are treated for our benefit and someone finically gain

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

The use of the word "nentau" slaps you really hard in the face and remembers you, if necessary, that poverty is terrible.

. We, coming from the developed and rich world, can't understand what it is to have spent one life eating the same thing everyday, with a couple of meat product only once in a while.

Those who want to ban the dog meat will have to find a solution to help people learning to change their diet, after having told them that they could stick up their ass their traditions.

Sure we have had a "proposal" in the thread: Pak Asam said "Ikan tuna "rica rica" is sold in cans in swalayan in SumUt Jakarta, Balikpapan to my personal knowledge, and probably across most of Indonesia". A genius this Pak Asam Manis.

Jaysus Krist why those barbarians eating dogs didn't think about it before?

It's well known that 7/11, Alfamart and Indomaret all have swalayan in each and every kampung accross Indonesia, especially in Manado where Alfamart and Indomaret just appeared two years ago. At Rp 15.000 per can (that's the cheapest you would get around here for canned tuna in sauce and that's for crap) for a 170g can of food we are talking about a replacement food being closed to Rp 90.000 per kg. I am impressed by your proposal, Pak Asam Manis.

Most of dog meat trade is not done in markets but from mouth to mouth, neighbors to neighbors, brothers to sisters...etc. If RW is sold at the moment Rp 40.000 per kg in markets, a full grown dog of 12 kg to 15 kg wouldn't be sold more than Rp 200.000 in a trading process between villagers. It doesn't require much brain to do the Maths and I am reasonably confident that even Pak Asam Manis may understand that the problem is perhaps more complex than what it may appear and why is proposal is ridiculous.

With all due thanks to Atlantis for the social studies lesson, I need no "reminders" about the conditions of poverty among the Indonesian people. During the time I have lived in Indonesia as an adult (discounting my childhood "expat bubble" years in Jakarta in the 70s, though even then I had at least a scrap of awareness), exactly none of it has been spent living inside some gated, fenced or walled in "komplek", but rather all of it was in one kampung or ordinary neighborhood or another, very much in the middle of the local population, where I played soccer with the neighbors' kids, taught them a bit of English, learned a bit of Indonesian, et cetera. I have seen a-plenty of the conditions of orang miskin, as well as spending countless hours among the children of the wealthy and middle class in a fancy school for the privileged ( a fact I did not hesitate to remind my students about, when I felt it necessary), and having an occasional glimpse into their life outside the school (the uniformed pembantu in groups of twos or threes trailing along, and all that). Would have seen considerably more of the latter but for the fact that my wife and I did not ourselves frequent the finer restos and the glitzier malls of Medan.

My wife's own family live in perpetual poverty in a kampung on the side of a hill in Balikpapan, in a modest house which they can barely keep up in terms of necessary repairs and so on. It is the same house which my wife will inherit when they pass on and in which we may live in the future. In the upstairs portion where we now stay when we are there, the walls literally "goyang goyang" from almost every movement of my too large body and the floor shakes a bit too. It feels like I am making a miniature earthquake with every step and at times I fear to come crashing through to the floor below. We had a "Westie" installed there in a tiny kamar kecil which is not more than an upstairs outhouse with sheet metal walls and roof. There is no running water in the house, at least not in the way conventionally understood. All the houses in the kampung rely on rainwater and drums. In times of draught, water is sometimes supplied from Chevron, who have a compound further up the hill. The last time I was there, in February of this year, they were having the roof repaired. The funding for such repairs comes partly from my own income. As I promised my wife before she married me, as she was giving up a well-paying job at a coal mining company compound "di hutan tengah" which she used to help support her parents, that I would take over the responsibility of helping them, which I have done since. When we were still living in Indonesia they received money from my wife generally every month. Since we have been living outside of Indonesia for the past two years in Thailand, China and the US, she sends them a larger sum every few months. It is enough to help, but still they live in conditions which would shock many people in / from the West. But they have enough to eat (no tuna ikan rica rica ), the medicine and healthcare they need gets paid, their house is kept in sufficient state to shelter adequately for themselves, my wife's adopted little brother, her youngest real brother, her sister and husband and their kids live in the house next door, which my father-in-law also owns. We have paid a loan for my wife's oldest younger brother to buy a motorcycle for his son, the downpayment to get the same son into vocational school, medical bills through our contributions as well as funding the Qorban sacrifice animal (yes) for both of my parents-in-law and my wife herself (I am still "rideless" for the moment).

I wish that I could do more to help them but I don't make the kind of money that some expats do. I do what I can do. But no, I don't need any moral instruction about the conditions of poverty.

In regard to my "suggestion": I can generally tell when Messieur Atlantis's tongue is firmly planted in his cheek (c.f. the droll sarcasm in his comment on my "other" thread on this topic). Maybe that ability doesn't go both ways. It was offered as a bit of humor in a thread which has caused me a bit of stress.

As far as providing an alternative to dog (or indeed to eating meat in general), there are indeed some possible "solutions" in the pipeline. One is jackfruit, which grows plentifully in many parts of SE Asia, including Indonesia, and can be cultivated easily in Indonesia's climate.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...fruit-sustainable-vegetarian-meat-substitute/

When cooked in its unripe form, it has a texture and taste very similar to meat. There is no doubt that changing attitudes and getting people to accept such dietary changes will take time (as in decades) but just like electric cars and bikes, using cloth bags instead of plastic and so many other changes which are beneficial to the environment, such changes will never happen unless they are encouraged and promoted before they actually become accepted or popular.

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

If we didn’t eat meat, there would be no cows and all those in the meat business would make no money

Are you familiar with the water engine?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_engine

There is a film by David Mamet called The Water Engine. In the story, an engineer invents a machine and process which converts water into energy usable in the same way as oil-based products, e.g, cars and other motors can run on water. As we can see from the link above, such a machine and process does or did in fact exist and was used for a few centuries. It's possible this process could have taken the place of products such as petroleum and its refined byproducts (gasoline, et cetera) and used to power cars and motorcycles. Of course, the petroleum industry would have had a lot to say about this, and very likely would have taken extreme and violent steps to stop it, as is the case in the movie.

You are certainly correct that worldwide vegetarianism would affect those in the beef production and marketing industries. However, it does not mean that there would "be no cows". Are there cows in India? Most definitely. And don't forget about the dairy industry, which can exist independent of the meat industry.

Just because the world, or much of it, "is the way it is" does not mean that it is therefore by necessity the way it must or should be, or that it couldn't reasonably be some other way ... just a bit of "food" for thought.

 

[El_Goretto]

I'd just like to see the animal dispatched without suffering, is all.

Indeed, this is key.

 

[Anglian]

Indeed, this is key.

I think I mentioned before part of my daughters job when she left Uni was to see that the abattoirs were conforming to the safety and humane slaughter of animals, she gave the job up shortly after seeing a pig, supposedly stunned, then hoisted over a huge vat of blood to have its throat cut in this stunned condition, sadly the pig hadn’t been fully stunned and struggled and fell into the vat of blood, my daughter was then ushered out, she has no idea how they got the pig out of the vat, it quite upset her and she left this very well paid job to become a nurse, she now works counciling people with cancer, I actually don’t know how she does that either.
Sadly we don’t live in a perfect world, there are poor people through no fault of themselves, just born in the wrong place, we can just hope there life gets better, but when you read about the corruption here and other parts of the world it’s going to take some time,
if we were born vegans from day one, Hindus probably not revere cows and Muslims wouldn’t be bothered about pigs and RCs wouldn’t eat fish on Friday

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

@Pak Asam Manis my bad, you did not call atlantis a drone, I was paraphrasing the part where you compared him to Spock. I could not remember exactly what you said and all I could think about was an entity devoid of emotion with a logic based decision making process. For all intent and purposes the term could have been drone or robot.

I am sure (or at least, your avatar leads me to believe so) you are aware that Mister Spock was (will be?) only HALF Vulcan. He is /was / will be also half human, even though he clearly dispreferred and repressed his more "emotional" side. Nevertheless, although he operated on the basis of "logic" with remarkable consistency, there were times when the human side could not help but be affected and show through. So, I would personally not equate nor compare him with a drone or robot. Stone Cold Steve Austin on the other foot is an entirely different story. I think more of "West"- or :"Future"-World, in the case of the latter. Yul Brynner ... sproingg, crackle, crackle.

Anyway, others can speak for themselves but I haven't found someone who doesn't seem to care about animals in this thread. So your perception is different and that's fine but I also think that you are, to your own admission, way over reacting.

Yes, but overreacting in a thread in which I did not expect to be treated from the start like a newly sighted enemy ship, with rockets and torpedoes incoming from every side, determined to sink me and my topic to the depths as quickly as possible (again, my perception ... our own perception is what each of us relies on, by default). Given such a case, I stood my, uh water, and fought back. We do disagree on this point, which is fine in my opinion also.

Maybe we're hypocrites for liking animals as a pet while accepting that they can also be consumed but I think it's equally hypocrite to only make a big deal about dogs being slaughtered while ignoring other animals like goats, rabbits, cows and pigs also being slaughtered for consumption. You will say that we can't compare dogs with pigs or cows but I'll say that it would be very unfair and kind of bringing your whole argument down. You think pigs are being slaughtered in any better way than dogs in those markets? That they don't have the same potential as dogs to be scared? I just think you have a cultural bias that you can't get out of. I don't blame you for having those emotions (I have them too) but at least try to recognize the unfairness of your argument before getting on your high horse and telling us how we're such horrible human beings.

I am happy to talk about the broader issue of animal consumption in general. but that was not my purpose in posting this link as a thread. I did intend it to be a "conversation starter" in the same way that anyone posting any link to any story about something "in the news" might intend. The link is about a proposal to ban the dog meat trade, not to ban all animal production for the purpose of human consumption. It is entirely "fair" and permissible, I believe, for me to post a link to such a story and to want to talk about my support for such an initiative on its own merits as I see them. I have not, and in contrast to your suggestion or prognostication of my behavior, WILL not say that "we can't compare dogs with pigs and cows" et cetera. Of course we can, and when we do we find that indeed they are all sentient animals which have brains, nervous systems, (very arguably) emotions and most definitely the capacity to feel physical sensations every but as much as we do. Accusing me of anything in this regard is hasty and unwarranted. I was a vegetarian for twenty years. I am not saying that all animal consumption should be banned.. I believe that eating meat is a choice and though it Is not "necessarily" the best nor by any means the only proper or "natural" choice for humans, I am not currently a vegetarian. I eat some of the animals which my religion says are permissible for consumption (beef, chicken, fish, occasionally goat or lamb). I don't eat those which it forbids, (pork, dog, shellfish, crustaceans). If my religion said that eating dogs was permissible, I still would not do so, and yes, that comes from the cultural understanding with which I was raised. However, although I grew up eating pork and was raised to think that it was A-OK to do so, I had given it up for a long time before I became Muslim and so it did not require any extra "effort" after that fact

I WILL argue that there is a big difference in eating dogs versus chickens, cows, goats, pigs, sheep or other traditional livestock animals. However, Puspawarna has already expressed this point pretty concisely and quite well. Humans have bred dogs over thousands of years and conditioned them genetically to readily accept a relationship of trust and cooperation with us, and to break that pact is an act which many, many people around the world (not all people, everywhere) consider immoral and treacherous.

My stance is that any animal is fair game for consumption but that as humans it is our duty to slaughter them with the least suffering possible.

And I agree with you on the last half of your statement.

 

[Euc-]

And that is the crux of the issue now isn't it? @Pak Asam Manis

If my religion said that eating dogs was permissible, I still would not do so, and yes, that comes from the cultural understanding with which I was raised.

What gives you the right to push YOUR personal cultural "understanding"/values upon those with different cultural values? Is your culture better then theirs? Ethnocentrism at its finest.

Why can't you respect that Batak people, Minahanese people and many other cultures around the world in the past as well as present have eaten dog as part of their ways?

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

That is a good point puspa, but sadly we don’t treat animals well, Wisnu point about the chickens, thousands never see the light of day, just to lay eggs, or in huge dimly lit sheds to keep them quite, sows penned in so they don’t roll on the piglets, a dead piglet is a financial loss, we can have opinions, but sadly cannot do much, we don’t even think about it, it wasn’t till wisnu mentioned the chickens, I had totally forgot about how badly they are treated for our benefit and someone finically gain

Hear, hear! So the question might naturally be, is this a situation which should just be chalked up to "the human character and condition" and accepted as a sort of ongoing "fait accompli"? Or it is something which we can and should strongly consider trying to change, as some are trying to do, to various degrees and in various ways? I would suggest the latter, it seems you lean more towards the former.

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

And that is the crux of the issue now isn't it? @Pak Asam Manis



What gives you the right to push YOUR personal cultural "understanding"/values upon those with different cultural values? Is your culture better then theirs? Ethnocentrism at its finest.

Why can't you respect that Batak people, Minahanese people and many other cultures around the world in the past as well as present have eaten dog as part of their ways?

Your strong implication is that I don't have the right to "push" or "impose" my views on others meaning that I don't have the right to express my own support for a proposal (sorry, once more) made BY INDONESIANS about a ban on the dog meat trade in their own country.

So, although I have lived some 17% of my life in the country, although I am married to WNI and potentially eligible to transfer my citizenship in the future, should I wish to, you feel that I do not have a right to express myself here or anywhere else to say that I agree with some INDONESIANS who think it is a good idea to make such a ban, although THEY are surely aware of all the implications and intricacies of cultural relativism to which you refer.

And I think you're dead wrong. I have every bit as much right to express that support as you have to denounce it, so go fish.

A number of cultures around the world in the past also have traditionally eaten humans as part of their ways. Possibly, in areas of the deep interior of Borneo, Papua and the Amazon, et cetera, a few of them still do. Should we also just keep out mouths shut about this for fear of offending their "cultural sensitivity and integrity of their traditions" or is it okay to say that we support a ban on consumption of human flesh?

You don't seem willing to connect the dots between the consumption of dog meat and the human cruelty involved in supplying that meat, even though I've posted a couple of videos which show it (and there are many, many more). It is my opinion, that since the animal cruelty laws which have been on the books of Indonesian law for some time have not been enforced and have done nothing to stop these barbaric, inhumane practices (talking here about the trafficking trade and the treatment of the animals, not just the actual acts of killing and consumption), the only way to put a stop to such practices would be to ban the trade altogether and enforce the law. If it would be possible to crack down on and stop the cruel practices of the illegal dog trafficking AND to regulate the husbandry of dogs raised from birth as livestock to minimize or eradicate (ha ha) cruelty, I might be able to support such a measure without the "cultural interference" of a total ban on consumption. Sadly, I think that neither measure have much likelihood of becoming reality in the time in the near future (ten, twenty years or more) but for Indonesians who feel the same way I do and for myself, the time to start asking for change is NOT 'besok besok".

 

[Euc-]

I’ll go one further and would even dare to say different cultures within indonesia have no right to judge other cultures, I do not specifically refer to you as a foreigner not having that right, you as a person from outside that particular culture that you are judging have no right. The oppression of the minority cultures in Indonesia is one thing that discusts me in particular.

If you start to compare humans with animals, that ends the conversation for me as I can’t take that serious

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

Why can't you respect that Batak people, Minahanese people and many other cultures around the world in the past as well as present have eaten dog as part of their ways?

I personally know a lot of Batak people. A good number of them I consider my friends, and they certainly include some of the best people I've ever met or known. And if some of them would be offended by the views I express here (and probably so), I would feel sorry that I have caused them that feeling. But it wouldn't / won't stop or change my own view or feeling, which is that if their cultural tradition cannot and will not continue without ending the cruel treatment of animals involved in "the way things are", then unfortunately they should have to be regulated up to and including a ban.

As a matter of practical "truth", the strong likelihood is as Atlantis said: that any ban the national government would ever implement would probably be severely watered down, with cultural exemptions for such areas.

I see the call for a total ban as more of an "attention getter" for animal welfare and anti-cruelty advocates to get the attention of more people around the country. As with any other sort of "civil rights" or freedom struggle, sometimes it is a better strategy to ask for a lot more than you actually, reasonably expect to be given. It is similar to the concept of "tawar". And as such, I support them in asking for anything and everything, up to and including the moon, the sun and the stars.

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

I’ll go one further and would even dare to say different cultures within indonesia have no right to judge other cultures, I do not specifically refer to you as a foreigner not having that right, you as a person from outside that particular culture that you are judging have no right. The oppression of the minority cultures in Indonesia is one thing that discusts me in particular.

If you start to compare humans with animals, that ends the conversation for me as I can’t take that serious

And all of that is exactly and precisely your opinion. I understand that your opinion is that I have no right to my opinion in this matter. So be it.

And by the way, I'm not judging their culture. I actually don't judge cannibalism as a part of someone's traditional ethnic culture either.

I may feel that both human eating dog and human eating human is wrong, but I am not judging whatever in their culture tells them it is good or right.

I am simply opposed to the act for what I see as the cruelty in it, and again, I am talking about the whole system of the way the requirements of the demand are supplied.

 

[Davita]

I'm surprised the subject of eating whale meat hasn't been opened on this thread...I tried it in Japan and it was delicious...

 

[Anglian]

I'm surprised the subject of eating whale meat hasn't been opened on this thread...I tried it in Japan and it was delicious...

Now you’ve done it, on Sky news this morning7 people had been killed by sharks in the world, I don’t think sharks particularly like people but accidents happen, I saw a photo from Hong Kong roof top of 10,000 sharks fins, it appears they catch the shark and cut its fin off and chuck it back in the sea, at this rate won’t be any left soon, I did read somewhere that more people get killed by falling coconuts, not much I can do about that either, I see no point on this thread insulting Atlantis, me or anybody else, I think most people believe and hope animals are killed humanely, we don’t rush down to the slaughtere house to watch, shortly here animals will be slaughter in the name of religion, as far as I can recall, there isn’t a mad rush to watch them being slaughtered, you actually get bigger crowds at chop square in Riyadh on a Friday afternoon watching and cheering some poor sod having his head cut off,
We are meat eaters, what ever the animal or reptile, fish and whale, if it’s done humanely and with concern to a species not being wiped out, not much I can do or want to do, but I will get annoyed if some vegan plonks themselves outside my butchers shop and tries to shut the shop, be a vegan but leave my steak alone

 

[snpark]

So is the issue here that it is a do

g or just the way it was killed?
How about cat meat? Funny we don't eat any of the feline species, even at the top, you don't eat lion or tiger MEAT

But dog? Hhhmmm

Is it the paws, or only cloven animals, goat, venison, moose, bison etc
Even emu, ostrich, snake, fugu, shark, jellyfish, croc, etc

Go to the UK and eat tripe, haggis, black pudding
All delicious
Even horse meat is popular in Europe
worms, scorpions, cockroaches, snails, spiders, larvae, humans pretty much eat anything, even each other

On this forum, some people even eat their own words
Or put their foot in their mouth

 

[Anglian]

Did you know, that a haggis is a six legged animal that 3 legs longer one side than the other, this is so it can run round the side of hills in Scotland without falling over, they are shot by special poridge guns, this sticks the little beasties to the hill were they are collected at leisure, it also ensures that they are unharmed on collection

 

[Anglian]

Ive seen little Chinese kids catching cockroaches live and eating them, they did pull the wings off though,no accounting for other people’s tastes

 

[snpark]

the wings are the best bit, the legs not so much, more useful for tooth pick after