Foreign Komisaris

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H29062024

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Can anyone reference a law/regulation that delineates why a foreign komisaris living abroad has no need for an izin kerja, while one already living in Indonesia supposedly does? Both will have their compensation taxed in Indonesia, so what is the difference?
 
This was asked recently so a search should bring up the results
 
I've searched and not found the answer. A foreign komisaris is certainly not a TKA, especially if he/she is either a) not living in Indonesia; or b) living in Indonesia but not for purposes of work (eg, on a spouse sponsored Kitas or Kitap for family reunion). So I would ask again, what is the legal basis for a foreign komisaris living in Indonesia being required to have an izin kerja?
 
RPTKA (izin kerja) is only required for Tenaga Kerja Asing, which is defined as those who have a visa for purpose of work. Permenaker No. 8 th 2021, Pasal 1 ayat 1.

Anyone else is not required to have RPTKA. If they visit with a tourist visa and are deemed to have worked, they will be violating Immigration law, not Manpower law. If they are on a spouse visa, Immigration law says they can work, so neither Immigration nor Manpower have a law against it.
 
I've searched and not found the answer. A foreign komisaris is certainly not a TKA, especially if he/she is either a) not living in Indonesia; or b) living in Indonesia but not for purposes of work (eg, on a spouse sponsored Kitas or Kitap for family reunion). So I would ask again, what is the legal basis for a foreign komisaris living in Indonesia being required to have an izin kerja?
Can anyone reference a law/regulation that delineates why a foreign komisaris living abroad has no need for an izin kerja, while one already living in Indonesia supposedly does? Both will have their compensation taxed in Indonesia, so what is the difference?
There are tons of info about this from lawyers and reputable multi national consultancy/accounting firms. Not from random people on the internet.

Even they domicile abroad they still need work permit.
Reference to the law/regulation: The minister of manpower of the republic of Indonesia Regulation No 16 2015, Article 37 which is superseding the regulation No12 2013.

p14, Issuance of Work Permits: Article 37
"(2) The Work Permit as referred to in section (1) shall also apply to a Foreign Worker holding the position of a member of the Board of Directors, a member of the Board of Commissioners or a member of the Trustees, a member of the Management, a member of the Supervisors domiciled abroad."

From lawyers and reputable multi nationals consultancy firms.
https://ajconsultants.net/wp-conten...o-16-of-2015-Indonesia-Foreign-Employment.pdf (From Deloitte)
https://www.surialaw.com/news/apaka...ak-menetap-di-indonesia-memerlukan-izin-kerja
https://www.paulhypepage.co.id/commissioners-and-directors-in-an-indonesian-company/
https://ssek.com/blog/new-manpower-...mmissioners-must-have-indonesian-work-permit/

"However, if the foreign Director or Commissioner becomes a shareholder in the company, then based on Article 10 paragraph 1 (a) of the Presidential Regulation Number 20 of 2018 concerning the Use of Foreign Workers (“Perpres 20/2018”), The Employers of the foreign workers is not required to have RPTKA to employ TKA who are shareholders who serve as members of the Board of Directors or members of the Board of Commissioners of the employers of foreign workers."
 
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As a matter of practice, foreigners residing outside Indonesia who are commissioners in Indonesian companies do not need izin kerja. I know several Singaporeans and Australians residing in their home countries who are commissioners at large, publicly-listed Indonesian MNC's and none have an izin kerja. There was some stink about this purported requirement in the past (also about requiring foreign commissioners to pass an Indonesian language test), but the whole thing was eventually dropped. As is typical in Indonesia, the law can say one thing, but the practice/interpretation can be something entirely different.

Also, a 'Foreign Worker' is, in Bahasa Indonesia, termed a Tenaga Kerja Asing (TKA), and as @Brian86 points out, is defined in the Manpower Law as someone who comes to stay in Indonesia for purposes of work... So, technically, as a matter of law, the question remains open for foreign commissioners who originally came to stay in Indonesia for purposes of family reunion on a spouse sponsored Kitas or Kitap. They are not TKA, ie Foreign Workers under the Manpower Law. Of course, practice/interpretation by the manpower authorities can be otherwise, but then we don't have rule of law, which it appears is a somewhat abstract concept in Indonesia.
 
Even they domicile abroad they still need work permit.
Reference to the law/regulation: The minister of manpower of the republic of Indonesia Regulation No 16 2015, Article 37 which is superseding the regulation No12 2013.

p14, Issuance of Work Permits: Article 37
"(2) The Work Permit as referred to in section (1) shall also apply to a Foreign Worker holding the position of a member of the Board of Directors, a member of the Board of Commissioners or a member of the Trustees, a member of the Management, a member of the Supervisors domiciled abroad."

That is no longer a valid law, see how it says "dicabut" in the right column: https://peraturan.bpk.go.id/Details/145987/permenaker-no-16-tahun-2015

The current law which has replaced it is the No. 8 tahun 2021 I linked above.

That former law is more confusing, because like No. 8 2021 it says in Pasal 1 that TKA is only those with a visa for the purpose of working. Pasal 37 which you quote does seem like it could possibly contradict that, but it doesn't matter, because that language is not present in the current law (No. 8 2021).
 
That is no longer a valid law, see how it says "dicabut" in the right column: https://peraturan.bpk.go.id/Details/145987/permenaker-no-16-tahun-2015

The current law which has replaced it is the No. 8 tahun 2021 I linked above.

That former law is more confusing, because like No. 8 2021 it says in Pasal 1 that TKA is only those with a visa for the purpose of working. Pasal 37 which you quote does seem like it could possibly contradict that, but it doesn't matter, because that language is not present in the current law (No. 8 2021).
Interesting. But, is this helping @Hermes? Just honest question. As I understand you are saying that someone with a kitas-spouse is allowed to work without a work permit.

That was my understanding, also based on info in other threads. However, only in informal work setting, right? Like in a warung. But, having a seat on the board as a "kommisar" is hardly an informal setting.

So, is it allowed or not?

Could be, though, that I misunderstood the answer.
 
Interesting. But, is this helping @Hermes? Just honest question. As I understand you are saying that someone with a kitas-spouse is allowed to work without a work permit.

That was my understanding, also based on info in other threads. However, only in informal work setting, right? Like in a warung. But, having a seat on the board as a "kommisar" is hardly an informal setting.

So, is it allowed or not?

Could be, though, that I misunderstood the answer.
I appreciate the desire to keep it practical and helpful. @Hermes has been vague in his questions so I'm not clear the exact situation he's addressing.

I would not fear working informally on a spouse visa, but I would be nervous about being a salaried komisaris on a spouse visa, although I have not seen any law that would make it illegal. The Permenaker No. 8 th2021 above does not, and I have searched for other laws addressing these issues and have not found any, but they may exist.
 
As a matter of practice, foreigners residing outside Indonesia who are commissioners in Indonesian companies do not need izin kerja. I know several Singaporeans and Australians residing in their home countries who are commissioners at large, publicly-listed Indonesian MNC's and none have an izin kerja. There was some stink about this purported requirement in the past (also about requiring foreign commissioners to pass an Indonesian language test), but the whole thing was eventually dropped. As is typical in Indonesia, the law can say one thing, but the practice/interpretation can be something entirely different.

Also, a 'Foreign Worker' is, in Bahasa Indonesia, termed a Tenaga Kerja Asing (TKA), and as @Brian86 points out, is defined in the Manpower Law as someone who comes to stay in Indonesia for purposes of work... So, technically, as a matter of law, the question remains open for foreign commissioners who originally came to stay in Indonesia for purposes of family reunion on a spouse sponsored Kitas or Kitap. They are not TKA, ie Foreign Workers under the Manpower Law. Of course, practice/interpretation by the manpower authorities can be otherwise, but then we don't have rule of law, which it appears is a somewhat abstract concept in Indonesia.
That former law is more confusing, because like No. 8 2021 it says in Pasal 1 that TKA is only those with a visa for the purpose of working. Pasal 37 which you quote does seem like it could possibly contradict that, but it doesn't matter, because that language is not present in the current law (No. 8 2021).
Out if interest I try to browse the new regulation. The Permenaker No. 8 2021
From the new regulation, to me it is crystal clear that Commisioner is categorised as TKA.

ARTICLE 5
(1) Employers of TKA can employ TKA who being employed by another TKA Employer for the same position as: a. directors or commissioners;

ARTICLE 20

(5) Ratification of RPTKA KEK for the position of director or commissioner, is given once and is valid for the duration of the TKA concerned becomes a director or commissioner accordingly with the provisions of the laws and regulations in immigration field.

EXCEPTIONS FOR VALIDATION OF PLAN USE FOREIGN WORKERS

ARTICLE 30

Ratification of the RPTKA does not apply to: a. directors or commissioners with share ownership, or shareholders in accordance with the provisions legislation;

ARTICLE 31
(1) Directors or commissioners with share ownership , or unenforceable shareholders Ratification of RPTKA as intended in Article No.301 -26-30 letters a must meet the criteria in accordance with provisions of laws and regulations in the field investment facilities.
(2) Directors or commissioners with share ownership certain parties, or shareholders as intended in paragraph (1) obtain a recommendation for granting a visa and a residence permit from a non-ministerial government agency who is tasked with carrying out policy coordination and services in the field of investment.

So it seems to me there is no any difference with the old regulation which has been superseded that I have quoted in Post#5. Director, Commissioner are TKA. As a commissioner you will only be exempted if you have share ownership, which literary means you own the company.

What is not clear yet is the Commisioners domicile abroad. But common sense rule if you own the companies and domicile abroad you are actually investors, which should be encouraged, you are not TKA. So I have no wonder if they are exempted from the requirement for a work permit or at least remains a grey area.

I would not fear working informally on a spouse visa, but I would be nervous about being a salaried komisaris on a spouse visa, although I have not seen any law that would make it illegal. The Permenaker No. 8 th2021 above does not, and I have searched for other laws addressing these issues and have not found any, but they may exist.
Spoused sponsored ITAP and Foreign Workers Recruitment Plan (“Rencana Penggunaan Tenaga Kerja Asing/ “RPTKA”) are two different things. ITAP is the right to abode, it does not automatically give you the right to work.
 
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So it seems to me it is no different with the old regulation which has been superseded that I have quoted in Post#5. Director, Commissioner are TKA. As a commissioner you will only be exempted if you have share ownership, which literary means you own the company.
A komisaris can be a TKA, but it is not a requirement. The exception for those with company shares (minimum 10M in latest immigration law) is one, but not necessarily the only one. The definition of TKA is clearly (and only) defined in Pasal 1 ayat 1 (article 1 paragraph 1), and does not apply to those on spouse visa.

Spoused sponsored ITAP and Foreign Workers Recruitment Plan (“Rencana Penggunaan Tenaga Kerja Asing/ “RPTKA”) are two different things. ITAP is the right to abode, it does not automatically give you the right to work.
Of course they are different, but Immigration law (UU 6 2011) specifically states the right for a spouse on a spousal visa to work to provide for their family. If a spouse working (whether informally or as komisaris) does not violate Immigration law or Manpower law, I am not aware of any other law it could be violating.
 
Of course they are different, but Immigration law (UU 6 2011) specifically states the right for a spouse on a spousal visa to work to provide for their family. If a spouse working (whether informally or as komisaris) does not violate Immigration law or Manpower law, I am not aware of any other law it could be violating.

I will exercise utmost caution in interpreting this matter. The information, which has been verified by immigration officers responding directly to inquiries asked by the a few people in this forum. The thing like this is certainly allowed to do, example in this the video especially in Minute 19:20 and upward:

It is certainty different with saying you are allowed to work with spoused sponsored ITAP. But I agree it is a grey area.

As with various aspects of life, interpretations may vary, and individuals may perceive the truth differently based on personal beliefs, until you get caught and deported and get banned to re-enter the country.
 
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As with various aspects of life, interpretations may vary, and individuals may perceive the truth differently based on personal beliefs, until you get caught and deported and get banned to re-enter the country.
As far as I know there isn't a legal precedent to base an opinion on. Until a known case gets brought to the courts, tried and documented, it's all just speculation. I do know of one person on a spouse KITAP that was teaching English in the Masjid and was threatened with legal action for doing so (after his wife complained) but he chose to leave before anything formal took place. Everything else seems to be hearsay. I don't need nor want to work here so it won't be me testing out the system.
 
So here's the scenario... employer is happy to process and pay for izin kerja. However, since my Kitap has less than a year left before renewal, Manpower won't process an IK. I can't renew the Kitap until it has less than three months before expiry, and then I'm advised by imigrasi that it will take 3 months to process the renewal (although Imigrasi's own law states that the max processing time for Kitap renewal is 18 working days)... IK will take another month after that. So we're looking at close to 9 months to a year to do an IK, which the government-owned employer doesn't accept, ie, they advise to ignore the obvious incompetence/idiocy of their fellow ministries and just get on with the job.. So there you have it.. Given the loss of face that would happen all the way around, I highly doubt this will be a test case... Will just process the IK sometime next year and in the meantime keep paying taxes...
 
So here's the scenario... employer is happy to process and pay for izin kerja. However, since my Kitap has less than a year left before renewal, Manpower won't process an IK. I can't renew the Kitap until it has less than three months before expiry, and then I'm advised by imigrasi that it will take 3 months to process the renewal (although Imigrasi's own law states that the max processing time for Kitap renewal is 18 working days)... IK will take another month after that. So we're looking at close to 9 months to a year to do an IK, which the government-owned employer doesn't accept, ie, they advise to ignore the obvious incompetence/idiocy of their fellow ministries and just get on with the job.. So there you have it.. Given the loss of face that would happen all the way around, I highly doubt this will be a test case... Will just process the IK sometime next year and in the meantime keep paying taxes...
Is IK "Ijin Kerja" (e.g work permit) ??
In your #1, #3, #6 post you are talking about a foreign commissioner living abroad. Is this newest post #14 anything to do with a foreign commissioner living abroad or for spoused sponsored ITAP ??

Presumably what you mean with IK is "Ijin Kerja" ?
 
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So here's the scenario... employer is happy to process and pay for izin kerja. However, since my Kitap has less than a year left before renewal, Manpower won't process an IK. I can't renew the Kitap until it has less than three months before expiry, and then I'm advised by imigrasi that it will take 3 months to process the renewal (although Imigrasi's own law states that the max processing time for Kitap renewal is 18 working days)... IK will take another month after that. So we're looking at close to 9 months to a year to do an IK, which the government-owned employer doesn't accept, ie, they advise to ignore the obvious incompetence/idiocy of their fellow ministries and just get on with the job.. So there you have it.. Given the loss of face that would happen all the way around, I highly doubt this will be a test case... Will just process the IK sometime next year and in the meantime keep paying taxes...

As I have stated above, I have not seen any law that this violates, but I also would not be surprised to encounter objections, even without a law to support them. Moreover, the manpower law is only written for companies, it has no enforcement upon individuals. If you proceed as the company suggests and Manpower has a problem with it, it is the company that will face the consequences, not you. Search the aforementioned Permenaker No. 8 th 2021 for "sanksi" and "denda" and you will see that all penalties are directed towards employers, not employees, particularly Pasal 49.
 
Is IK "Ijin Kerja" (e.g work permit) ??
In your #1, #3, #6 post you are talking about a foreign commissioner living abroad. Is this newest post #14 anything to do with a foreign commissioner living abroad or for spoused sponsored ITAP ??

Presumably what you mean with IK is "Ijin Kerja" ?
Yes, Izin/Ijin Kerja. Previous discussion was to try and understand the legal differences between a foreign commissioner living abroad (no work permit required), and one already living in Indonesia on a spouse sponsored visa (seemingly required, at least in practice, even though a person in Indonesia on a spouse sponsored visa does not fit definition of a TKA)..
 

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