Dating

gemima

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Have you been to Surabaya yet? I think you might need to plan your move based on where you personally would be happier rather than where you predict you will find better wife material.
I couldn't see myself being happy living in Surabaya and if I was single it would be even worse (I'm a woman though so a very different experience from a foreign man living here).
In Jakarta I have lots of friends who match your list of requirements - I'm not sure you would match their list of requirements though (please don't refer to people as Chindos!)
 

jstar

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This will sound a bit rude, but those ladies who have studied abroad in the western world, are smart, often from better (read: wealthier) backgrounds, and they are obviously well informed. So they won't get blindsighted by the bule factor (i.e. the perceived exotic charm of your skin color) so easily, and do realize that there are even bule flipping burgers and they are not all super romantic. So even those who live in their home country, will ask what you bring to the table. Also, there is no real night life for 'nice' girls; don't think for a second you will meet a lady like that in a bar or so.

Something else on giving priority to job vs relationship. I think that those who propagate the former, think about blooming careers as engineers or potential CEO's but don't forget we are talking about a teaching position here. (This is not a value judgement! And I can imagine it's gratifying.) Now in (south) east Asia with all its international schools, it really is not so hard to get a job if you have the qualifications. And I really don't see a big difference between teaching in Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, ......
 

jukung11

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*It's important that I find someone well-educated (preferably educated in the West), with a liberal, open perspective on the world. How difficult is my mission?
I have spent less time in China than in Indonesia. I will give what little perspective I can.

In either country to find a partner that deviates far from the values of the dominant culture and country is extremely difficult. Then you are going to expect that person to stay in the dominant culture that they don't fit in with just to be with you?

You are more likely going to find a western educated person in China. There are a lot of factors for this.

Economics is a simple one. Indonesia is a much poorer country. With the cost of living adjustment and currency exchange rates, most Indonesians can't afford to send their children for western educations. On average Indonesia has around 40,000 students abroad now. Also, the economy of China can attract a western educated Chinese woman to stay in China. Indonesia is a far less developed economy, especially outside of Jakarta. The salary opportunities that a western education allows Indonesians to work abroad makes it rarer to find them in a place like Surabaya.

Quality of education is another. The quality of education in Indonesia is very poor. 55% of Indonesians that complete school are functionally illiterate, which is one of the higher in the world. Even when they can afford to go abroad, it is a challenge to succeed if their credentials get them in at all. The jakarta post did an article recently on demographics. The average Indonesian in your dating age group has not completed upper secondary school.

Culture is another factor. Both cultures are traditional Asian cultures where the eldest son is the one responsible to take care of the parents and the daughter becomes part of the husband's family, except when there is an only daughter. Then the responsibility of taking care of the wife's parents falls to the husband. Traditionally in both cultures the resources to educate the children would go to the sons first. The one child policy in China has turned this cultural value on its head. Instead of splitting resources between many children or spending it on sons, it has been put into the education of more women. The flip side of this is as long as you are living in China it will be your responsibility to care for her parents. With the one child policy there will be more family and social pressure for a Chinese woman to marry a Chinese man or a foreign man that will adopt her culture.

I am more into accepting the women in each place will have certain cultural values from the dominant culture. Both countries have their positives and negatives. I would look at which culture you would be happier living with. I like the extreme driven nature the Chinese culture puts into education. As a teacher, this may appeal to you also. I have also found a more intense work ethic in China. My problem is I have found the Chinese to be more cold people. More distrustful and cutthroat. They put an extreme cultural value on wealth that can be a little off-putting.

I think you should also consider which culture will tolerate you and your western values more. I believe Indonesia will be more accepting of you marrying and integrating into an Indonesian family. Marriage is a little more focused on money in Chinese culture than Indonesian, but it is still a little about money in Indonesia too. You will be considered higher income in Indonesia than you will in China, helping you to be considered a better potential marriage candidate.
 

harryopal

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If the money focus bothers you try Kenya. You could probably get a reasonable wife for about six cows. Or PNG maybe eight pigs would close the deal.
 

snpark

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It's not as if the op comes across as a highly educated westerner himself anyway
 

Dominique

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Is it really that ridiculous? [/QUOTE said:
I don't know if it is ridiculous but the way you present things, a bit like a shopping wish list, is really funny :) Who on this planet can be looking for an intelligent, well educated, open minded partner ? (and preferably not too ugly and not too old I suppose) : well, just about everyone !
What are your chances of finding this perfect match in Indonesia or China ? The same as anywhere else in the world.
This being said, Surabaya is not a cosmopolitan city like Jakarta or Shanghai. You seem to forget that the quality of life in the place you plan to move to is also a rather important factor. As others said before, chose the job opportunity and the location first, the rest will come on its own !
 

Puspawarna

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Speaking as a female (one of the few who post here), I find this thread slightly weird. Not that the thread is sexist, exactly - I don't think it is. Sexist would be something like "where are the hottest babes?" or "which country's girls are more submissive?" This thread is far more respectful than that. Still - it seems more like y'all are talking about some exotic wildlife that must be carefully stalked, rather than variable but ordinary human beings, just like you, who make up half the population wherever you go.

Balifrog's post was kind of a relief to read. I don't know if he's "old fashioned" or not, but he's got a good attitude.
 

harryopal

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If the money focus bothers you try Kenya. You could probably get a reasonable wife for about six cows. Or PNG maybe eight pigs would close the deal.
I thought I was being ironic. As at home when I tell my wife I am just trying to help her to be a good Muslim wife by explaining that she should always listen carefully to anything I say because anything a man says might be important and that she is actually my property. I may have to take the toothbrush to her (as suggested on one Muslim marriage counselling site as an appropriate form of chastisement) as she seems strangely resistant to my good advice.
 

jukung11

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If the money focus bothers you try Kenya. You could probably get a reasonable wife for about six cows. Or PNG maybe eight pigs would close the deal.
In NTT, they like a diversity of livestock with a horse usually thrown in too. Sometimes it is livestock, sometimes cash with "loan" from the perspective inlaws. I imagine a few expats have come across this with how many women from NTT move to Bali for work.

Since OP is not familiar with Indonesia and might not get the joke, here is an article explaining some of the dowry customs of eastern Indonesia.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e0f8/76497a724c63c7245f18309d84132c9d4da8.pdf


For Surabaya, wait until the culture shock when OP gets the regular sales pitch for marriage from the Madurese women about their vaginal exercises. The diverse cultures really does make this a fascinating country.
 

Balifrog

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Hmm. Didn't you get the impression from the OP he wants one woman (in one country)?
Mmmmm,
Except if the OP is 70 y old, it is difficult to "guarantee" the future !

At the start the idea is of course to find THE one, the only and unique, but it doesn't always work out like that.
And usually, yes we want her smart, educated, good looking... Rich is a plus as well ! Tongue in cheek.
I repeat my thinking, you don't organize this like a hunt for the best trophee....
 

Puspawarna

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Hmm. Didn't you get the impression from the OP he wants one woman (in one country)?
I'm not sure what that question has to do with my reaction to the thread. I was merely mildly put off by the sense that men view women as some kind of mysterious creature whose habitat and behavior must be analyzed in order to sneak up on one for capture. Balifrog's point that "There are good women all over the world" was refreshing in that context. China, Indonesia, even (gasp!) a non-Asian country ... I guarantee you, there are all kinds of women in every nation. Some will be attractive to a man seeking a mate; others won't. Focusing on professional opportunities as Balifrog suggested seems to make more sense.
 

jstar

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Ever considered that ‘focusing on professional opportunities’ could be the reason one doesn’t get a relationship? Or that the chance is higher they will end prematurely?
 

Puspawarna

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Ever considered that ‘focusing on professional opportunities’ could be the reason one doesn’t get a relationship? Or that the chance is higher they will end prematurely?
I believe that statistics show a focus on professional opportunities is more damaging to the romantic lives of women than it is to men. Not that I'm trying to argue anything in particular. Work-life balance and common sense in seeking relationships are good values for people of all genders and orientations to pursue.
 

vocalneal

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Rich is a plus as well ! Tongue in cheek.
My father told me it is just as easy to fall in love with a rich person as a poor one. :whistle:

As for the OP Hmm 40? Hasn't realized yet that the women do the choosing?

I also would prefer the climate in Indonesia to that of China but take the best of the two offers and the rest will sort itself out.
 

jstar

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a focus on professional opportunities is more damaging to the romantic lives of women than it is to men
This could be true.

Some decades ago I had a serious relationship with a Chinese lady in HK. High level western educated and smart, she made it very clear career was important, and the not coming home before midnight from work was something that would not stop.

Now she also wanted kids. And the focus on making money had in fact one major goal; to get the best (Harvard) education for them.

So when I brought up I also had a career and I asked if that was the way our life would be, me at home with the children, waiting for her to come home, she had a great solution: Children will spend the first couple of years with her parents. Rather normal to free up time of the parents and as added advantage they will learn some discipline at grandma's place.

Talking about cultural differences.
 

Sarah

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Hey! Honestly, it depends on the person and which race they are from. If you want the Surabaya women, they’re more “strict” and rarely open-minded. Usually Surabaya or Chinese Surabaya, they really uphold unto tradition. So it’s hard to say.

Wife is a strong word or commitment.
If you want to find a wife that you are attracted to first thing you do, give her attention. But don’t be direct (due to some people here have a negative prediction about indonesian woman being gold-digger; I agree-to-disagree) Every where is the same, there is gold-digger and there’s a genuine woman. There are players and there are faithful man. It’s hard to determine. From my experience, don’t jump directly into shooting i just wanna find a wife.
If you want to see someone’s sincerity, START as a friend because Indonesians really like the idea or illusions of becoming “friends” mostly with foreigners (which kinda weird).But because you are white guy or an expat, cut the limit directly to the girls that try to get your attention.
First pick which one. Become friends. I know this gonna be weird. Tell her i am not looking for any woman or even “fun” right now. At this time, she will treat normally. From there you can tell by the time if she’s sincere with you or not.
 
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Sarah

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Nope I disagree. My father allows me to date anyone I want. He would even ask about it and we laugh together funny moments when I date any guy.
 
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Sarah

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A lot of indonesians are rich. I mean there are poor people. In state, you’d find a LOT of homeless people. In Indonesia at least people can build small houses although it categorized as illegal. But still there are a lot of rich people. But many of us are not keen to show it off or put it in social media. Some people who are rich like to stay low-life. Only people who “suddenly “ become rich that like to show off or overdo their makeup or plastic surgery. But many of us just living simple. I’ve had seen my father’s friends, either Chinese or the local, they’re super rich but they use flip-flops to their Shipyard or Real-Estate project.
 
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merahputih

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How about spending sometimes in both cities where you got your job offer from before you decide? I don't say one to three months is enough to know the place inside out. But at least it will give you more clarity of how daily life goes, if you like it there, and how the women really are.
I never heard the Chindos term, but may be because I'm out-dated.
 

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