Almost 60% of Muslim Teachers Intolerant, Hold Radical Views

[Fred]

I've met successful, well traveled people who will reject ISIS and extremism while blaming the natural disasters on God punishing us for the LGBT in the same breath.

What, the guy in Malaysia that claimed that?
Still, add him to the number of Indonesians if it helps keep the numbers up.

 

[Fred]

Breaking news! The Jakarta Globe has perfected artificial intelligence and now does not need real people to write its articles! Someone please call Sarah Connor before it's too late!

No need to get wild, the paper didn't actually write the report, just reported on it.
Sadly, you seem to be unable to separate facts from your assumptions.

 

[Fred]

In Banda Aceh

I most pleasant place, one I'm hoping to visit again.

 

[Fred]

To stay on your level of discussing (see the first sentence of your quote underneath); aren't both Fox News and CNN both, television channels instead of newspapers?
.

https://www.foxnews.com/

https://edition.cnn.com/

and they have TV channels, but I read their electronic newspapers.
Nice try, total crap, but a nice try.

But anyway, with your first sentence you more or less admit what you have asserted in the first place; the Jakarta Globe (article) can not be trusted. Well well, we're finally there.
.

You "assume" so, but have yet to supply any evidence to show it.
Are you Trump?

 

[El_Goretto]

No need to get wild, the paper didn't actually write the report, just reported on it.
Sadly, you seem to be unable to separate facts from your assumptions.

I didn't say the paper wrote the report. But the author of the article (again, not the paper's) did quote the survey and the organization of the survey. In your own word: The big problem with statistics is they tend to prove whatever the person quoting the numbers wants to prove.

As such, that person would be the author of the JG article.

You are conducting your straw man argument in very bad faith. It doesn't reflect well on you. Also, feels like I'm arguing with my 6yo.

 

[Daniel50]

Seriously, this whole 'you assumed, no I didn't, yes you did, no you assumed I assumed, lost its meaning about 1 or 2 pgs. ago. Perhaps Fred believes there is am implicit bias against Islam and is therefore defensive. 'No I don't yes I do ......I didn't say that yes you did'.......ad infinitum.

 

[Fred]

Perhaps Fred believes there is am implicit bias against Islam and is therefore defensive

Not at all, I just don't trust polls because you can make them say whatever you want.

 

[Pak Tani]

It very well may be the thinking that has been in place for years. There are a certain amount of people in all parts of society that would like to see a Caliphate. But if you begin to break down what all that means it would be varied and complex. Indonesian has always been, and is, a religious society. Many of the people are not ready/willing to accept some things seen as normal/accepted in the West.

This thread sparked my interest to read a little bit more about the development of islamic views of the Indonesian public. It's not possible to compare the data (or rather: the conclusions made by the researchers) from the poll in the OP with other, older data. What we can do, is compare the development of various political parties since the first elections in the post-Suharto era. Increasing support for islamic parties can tell us if the Indonesian society is becoming more islamic, especially if this support is for conservative islamic parties.
The political parties can be divided into two groups, secular parties and islamic parties. There are 5 islamic political parties that are worth mentioning:
- PK(S) conservative, claims to support the implementation syari'a
- PAN progressive, probably most moderate of these 5 parties
- PPP conservative, has islam as it's ideological foundation
- PKB moderate, does not advocate Indonesia to become an islamic state
- PBB conservative, claims to support the implementation of syari'a law

PK(S), PPP, PBB are the more conservative parties.



Simplified conclusion of the above data: since 1999 about 1 out of 3 votes has been for islamic parties, and 1 out of every six votes has been for representatives of conservative islamic parties.

 

[Daniel50]

Some writers thoughts on increasing intolerance.......the Newspaper Article attributes some to SBY and "Discriminatory Government Regulations"......

https://coconuts.co/jakarta/news/ri...-discriminatory-government-regulations-human/

This article looks at intolerance, probable causes and its effects....most specifically to Ahmadiyah.... at the end of this article someone argues that it should be addressed, as one possible step, through better interfaith education in schools which may not be happening according to the JG article.

http://mackenzieinstitute.com/relig...-religious-inclusion-since-post-independence/

This article also looks at rising intolerance, probable causes and effects..........and looks at the GKI Church in Bogor......

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/aspp.12375

Maybe overall support for intolerance has not grown so much? Maybe just certain people are able to abuse laws? Maybe it is just some of the same minority of people who believe they can get away with more?

 

[Daniel50]

This thread sparked my interest to read a little bit more about the development of islamic views of the Indonesian public. It's not possible to compare the data (or rather: the conclusions made by the researchers) from the poll in the OP with other, older data. What we can do, is compare the development of various political parties since the first elections in the post-Suharto era. Increasing support for islamic parties can tell us if the Indonesian society is becoming more islamic, especially if this support is for conservative islamic parties.
The political parties can be divided into two groups, secular parties and islamic parties. There are 5 islamic political parties that are worth mentioning:
- PK(S) conservative, claims to support the implementation syari'a
- PAN progressive, probably most moderate of these 5 parties
- PPP conservative, has islam as it's ideological foundation
- PKB moderate, does not advocate Indonesia to become an islamic state
- PBB conservative, claims to support the implementation of syari'a law

PK(S), PPP, PBB are the more conservative parties.



Simplified conclusion of the above data: since 1999 about 1 out of 3 votes has been for islamic parties, and 1 out of every six votes has been for representatives of conservative islamic parties.

Thanks Pak Tani............although the numbers have not really changed since 1999, as far as votes for political parties, 1 in 6 is still a large number of people voting for a "conservative Islamic party"/ideology.

 

[waarmstrong]

On the other hand, less than 17 percent does not equate to much in terms of ability to move a political agenda. Keep in mind, as well, that it has been around that level since the end of the dictatorship.

 

[Nimbus]

I believe it. It is a reflection of Indonesia in general. I still blame Soeharto for part of it. He spent thirty years secularizing Indonesia, then during his last years he tried to legitimize his rule (and the dynastic succession of power to his daughter) by courting Islam and supporting certain Islamic organizations. He failed, but the genie was already out of the bottle.

I get into occasional arguments with my old classmates who now embrace Saudi ideology, saying garbage like the Tsunami in Palu is God's punishment. These people are out there, in force. Things are gonna get worse before they get better.

 

[Nimbus]

For those of you who read Indonesian, here's the original article by PPIM:

https://ppim.uinjkt.ac.id/category/...18:-menyibak-intoleransi-dan-radikalisme-guru

 

[scouser59]

I believe it. It is a reflection of Indonesia in general. I still blame Soeharto for part of it. He spent thirty years secularizing Indonesia, then during his last years he tried to legitimize his rule (and the dynastic succession of power to his daughter) by courting Islam and supporting certain Islamic organizations. He failed, but the genie was already out of the bottle.

I get into occasional arguments with my old classmates who now embrace Saudi ideology, saying garbage like the Tsunami in Palu is God's punishment. These people are out there, in force. Things are gonna get worse before they get better.

My wife heard this BS at a meeting with some local freinds in our village ,where the ustad repeated this Bull...., saying Palu was destroyed because it is nest of PSK , unfortunately there are simple people who believe this dangerous baloney !.

 

[Nimbus]

My wife heard this BS at a meeting with some local freinds in our village ,where the ustad repeated this Bull...., saying Palu was destroyed because it is nest of PSK , unfortunately there are simple people who believe this dangerous baloney !.

So I asked her, how come Aceh lost hundreds of thousands of lives to a tsunami while reputed to be the most pious province, the so called "Porch of Mecca"?

I can't stand it when people claim to speak for God. Did he text you saying the tsunami was a punishment?

 

[atlantis]

So I asked her, how come Aceh lost hundreds of thousands of lives to a tsunami while reputed to be the most pious province, the so called "Porch of Mecca"?

The answer to this question is generally unfortunately even more disgusting. Remember that the 2004 Tsunami occurred on December 26th, a day after Christmas. Explanation is that it is a punishment of God for allowing Christians to celebrate Christmas in the "Porch of Mecca". I have heard it once myself and a friend who had a business in Pulau Weh heard it several times.

 

[Chiron]

The answer to this question is generally unfortunately even more disgusting. Remember that the 2004 Tsunami occurred on December 26th, a day after Christmas. Explanation is that it is a punishment of God for allowing Christians to celebrate Christmas in the "Porch of Mecca". I have heard it once myself and a friend who had a business in Pulau Weh heard it several times.

It would be nice to have a printout of this map if ever getting into one of these types of discussions. Apparently the Porch of Mecca, has been "punished" quite a bit over time...

 

[Nimbus]

It would be nice to have a printout of this map if ever getting into one of these types of discussions. Apparently the Porch of Mecca, has been "punished" quite a bit over time...

Would you believe that every single Indonesian student is taught about this tectonic map? I remember drawing the map as homework. They have to be idiots to forget the map completely, yet this particular classmate proudly proclaimed that Kalimantan (where her family is from) is always spared because her people are very strong in their prayers. She should be glad that I have mellowed out as I get older, the younger me wouldn't be so restrained. All I did was show her the map again.

 

[atlantis]

The answer to this question is generally unfortunately even more disgusting. Remember that the 2004 Tsunami occurred on December 26th, a day after Christmas. Explanation is that it is a punishment of God for allowing Christians to celebrate Christmas in the "Porch of Mecca". I have heard it once myself and a friend who had a business in Pulau Weh heard it several times.

This being said, the same idiotic comments are made on the other side of the fence. For many of my fellow Manadonese, Christians, Aceh's tsunami was a punishment of God for the church closures and Palu's tsunami is a punishment of God for the exaction committed against Christians in Palu and Central Sulawesi (think the sectarian conflict of Poso).

Most of our household staff is from the Luwuk area, Central Sulawesi. All Christians and obviously having been traumatized by the years of conflict in their region. I wasn't prepare to their reaction immediately after the earthquake and tsunami in Palu. Two of them could NOT hide their... joy! I just could not believe it. The hate went out spontaneously and one of them even said to me that they (Palu's people, read: Muslims) could all die, it was only divine justice for what they have done to them (read: Christians).
If the Malino declaration has been signed, it's very obvious that wounds (on both part) are still far from being healed.

Some years ago I was used to go to Palu for trading several times a month. Mostly with Muslims since they are the majority in the Palu area. As a foreigner (and obviously assumed Christian) I can't say that I have ever felt any animosity toward me. However a stunning thing almost always happened when my wife or my bro in law were accompanying me. If people were super nice with me and eager to talk to me, many were defiant, almost rude with them, and it makes no doubt that it is because of their obvious Minahasan (read: Christian) origin.

 

[Nimbus]

This being said, the same idiotic comments are made on the other side of the fence. For many of my fellow Manadonese, Christians, Aceh's tsunami was a punishment of God for the church closures and Palu's tsunami is a punishment of God for the exaction committed against Christians in Palu and Central Sulawesi (think the sectarian conflict of Poso).

Most of our household staff is from the Luwuk area, Central Sulawesi. All Christians and obviously having been traumatized by the years of conflict in their region. I wasn't prepare to their reaction immediately after the earthquake and tsunami in Palu. Two of them could NOT hide their... joy! I just could not believe it. The hate went out spontaneously and one of them even said to me that they (Palu's people, read: Muslims) could all die, it was only divine justice for what they have done to them (read: Christians).
If the Malino declaration has been signed, it's very obvious that wounds (on both part) are still far from being healed.

Some years ago I was used to go to Palu for trading several times a month. Mostly with Muslims since they are the majority in the Palu area. As a foreigner (and obviously assumed Christian) I can't say that I have ever felt any animosity toward me. However a stunning thing almost always happened when my wife or my bro in law were accompanying me. If people were super nice with me and eager to talk to me, many were defiant, almost rude with them, and it makes no doubt that it is because of their obvious Minahasan (read: Christian) origin.

It is a sad state of affairs.

I have no problem with the use of religion as a spiritual guide, as a way to attain inner peace and to channel charity. But, I have a big issue when people start weaponizing it.