Almost 60% of Muslim Teachers Intolerant, Hold Radical Views

[Puspawarna]

Fight fight fight lol

Mod Reminder: As much as we all love a rousing debate (message boards depend on them), we strive for substantive back-and-forth, not just stirring the pot. A comment that agrees with one side of the argument or disagrees with the other, supported with reasoning, is a lot more valuable than a post that expresses glee as the conversation degenerates.

 

[Fred]

Mod Reminder: As much as we all love a rousing debate (message boards depend on them), we strive for substantive back-and-forth, not just stirring the pot. A comment that agrees with one side of the argument or disagrees with the other, supported with reasoning, is a lot more valuable than a post that expresses glee as the conversation degenerates.

But we surely have the right to correct our interlocutor when they make stuff up then claim I said it.

 

[snpark]

Mod Reminder: As much as we all love a rousing debate (message boards depend on them), we strive for substantive back-and-forth, not just stirring the pot. A comment that agrees with one side of the argument or disagrees with the other, supported with reasoning, is a lot more valuable than a post that expresses glee as the conversation degenerates.

Duly reminded, sorry
Handbags at dawn then? Behind the bike sheds after school?

 

[Daniel50]

I think it is fair to say that...... Almost 60 % of Forum Users Have Been Moderated......... at one time or another.


I think being very sorry can really go a long way......... as demonstrated in this video........

 

[jstar]

But we surely have the right to correct our interlocutor when they make stuff up then claim I said it.

Eh? So you seriously contend that your first post in this thread did not have anything to do with its preceding post? It was just a brain fart and a generic statement? Come on.

We might not be native speakers of English (yes I do get you use that as argument also) but this was very obvious..

 

[Fred]

Am I to assume you believe everything the papers print?
You must get very confused if you believe both Fox and CNN.

 

[Fred]

By the way, the Jakarta Globe isn't a person, it's a thing.
That sort of makes the second part of your highlighting job a bit of a waste of time.
Still, you seem to enjoy colouring in so go for it.

 

[jstar]

Am I to assume you believe everything the papers print?
You must get very confused if you believe both Fox and CNN.

To stay on your level of discussing (see the first sentence of your quote underneath); aren't both Fox News and CNN both, television channels instead of newspapers?

But anyway, with your first sentence you more or less admit what you have asserted in the first place; the Jakarta Globe (article) can not be trusted. Well well, we're finally there.

By the way, the Jakarta Globe isn't a person, it's a thing.
That sort of makes the second part of your highlighting job a bit of a waste of time.
Still, you seem to enjoy colouring in so go for it.

Argumentum ad hominem, Fred.
.

 

[El_Goretto]

By the way, the Jakarta Globe isn't a person, it's a thing.
That sort of makes the second part of your highlighting job a bit of a waste of time.

Breaking news! The Jakarta Globe has perfected artificial intelligence and now does not need real people to write its articles! Someone please call Sarah Connor before it's too late!

 

[Daniel50]

ad hominem.

Now I am not wishing to offend anyone........but I learned something today.......I always thought "ad Hominem" referred to ads in Gay Magazines.

But seriously if this survey is somewhat reflective of current reality, and future trends, what could this mean for the broader Indonesian society?

 

[waarmstrong]

The survey seems to be an assessment of the current views of teachers who follow the Islamic faith, which I assume means, at least on Java, most teachers. I wonder if that reflects a shift in views toward the cultural/religious conservative end of the spectrum or if its pretty much the thinking (or lack thereof) that has been in vogue for years and years.

 

[jstar]

I always thought "ad Hominem" referred to ads in Gay Magazines.

Many still seem to think the Neanderthaler was the straight version of the Homo Sapiens.

But seriously if this survey is somewhat reflective of current reality, and future trends, what could this mean for the broader Indonesian society?

The survey seems to be an assessment of the current views of teachers who follow the Islamic faith, which I assume means, at least on Java, most teachers. I wonder if that reflects a shift in views toward the cultural/religious conservative end of the spectrum or if its pretty much the thinking (or lack thereof) that has been in vogue for years and years.

And that's why I think that comments like 'change and improve the education' are pie in the sky remarks. (Esp. if it includes ridiculous insults we should not be sitting on our @sses here, just commenting.)

First of all, those who should change the contents of the education are the teachers we're talking about here. Secondly, we have no access to religious schools and classes, most expat WNA teachers work in National+ (probably teaching English) and International schools. Thirdly, in the current political climate, Indonesia is not becoming more liberal, on the contrary. So there's no general consensus this evolution is a bad thing. And lastly, even if there are changes implemented; if we assume an average age of 35, it would take at least three decades before we see a new generation of teachers.
..

 

[Chiron]

Thirdly, in the current political climate, Indonesia is not becoming more liberal, on the contrary. So there's no general consensus this evolution is a bad thing. And lastly, even if there are changes implemented; if we assume an average age of 35, it would take at least three decades before we see a new generation of teachers.
..

Hi jstar, what you're saying here is certainly worth elaborating on. It's really the crux of this thread, and many other threads on this forum expressing concerns about Indonesia and the trend towards more conservative Islam. That said, what are the actual implications for a Western expat in this emerging trend? I'm sure the answer varies depending on the reason for moving there: retirement, new career, business, etc.

I've done some thinking about this, and tried to imagine how my life might be impacted as a new resident to the country. Okay, we'll leave the crazy events out of this, like church and disco bombings, and other deaths that can be attributed to religious reasons. If getting murdered is high on the list of concerns, then getting out of the USA and moving to Indonesia should be a priority. Indonesia has one of the lowest murder rates in the world, as just the city of Chicago exceeds whole country of Indonesia each year. That aside, what else could happen?

1. Will I face discrimination for not converting?
2. Will my wife be forced to wear a hijab in public?
3. Will I not be able to find beer one day. Okay confession time - I don't drink, but am empathetic for those who do.
4. Will I face fines (or worse) for some minor infraction, like holding my wife's hand in public, or betting on the World Cup?
5. Will I not be able to visit restaurants during certain religious times of the day, Ramadan, etc.

So, I'm thinking this is like the Banda Aceh model, but on a national scale. I think stuff like this is actually enforced over there. They also have special surprises for gays and pre-marriage teen passion. For those who are ultra-conservative, all the above is good news and a step in the right direction. For others, this would be a total nightmare. I'm sure there's some who simply won't care, and would just adapt to the silly rules as needed. I probably fall into the latter category - okay maybe a little bit of a bad dream, but not a total nightmare. By taking this "don't care" approach, is there some other major point or concept that is not being considered? How might one's life be affected in some way where they just can't take it anymore?

 

[El_Goretto]

Thanks for lifting the debate up @jstar, @waarmstrong, @Chiron and @Daniel50.

Indeed, I fail to see what we, foreigners, can do other than discussing those issues and bringing a little bit of awareness even if it's a drop in the ocean.

It's a complex problem. For instance, I've met successful, well traveled people who will reject ISIS and extremism while blaming the natural disasters on God punishing us for the LGBT in the same breath.

 

[waarmstrong]

Our home base for the time being is the Midwestern USA (talk about bat shit crazy conservatism), but visit Indonesia for a couple of months each summer. On a personal level not much has changed. We are still accepted as a regular part of the neighborhood and although some of the family members have adopted more traditional Muslin dress, that seems to be more of a fashion statement than a values shift. Under the cloth, there is little difference detectable from summer to summer.

 

[Chiron]

It's a complex problem. For instance, I've met successful, well traveled people who will reject ISIS and extremism while blaming the natural disasters on God punishing us for the LGBT in the same breath.

To your point about rejection of ISIS, there was a video from about a year ago that a Korean/Japanese YouTube channel did a story on. I found it interesting, as they randomly asked (mostly younger) Indonesians on the street what they thought about ISIS:

 

[Daniel50]

Our home base for the time being is the Midwestern USA but visit Indonesia for a couple of months each summer. On a personal level not much has changed. We are still accepted as a regular part of the neighborhood and although some of the family members have adopted more traditional Muslin dress, that seems to be more of a fashion statement than a values shift. Under the cloth, there is little difference detectable from summer to summer.

Yes from some peoples perspective (anecdotal) they notice some friends wearing more traditional Muslim dress but the same people watching some of the same Western shows, conversations the same, nothing seems to have changed.

The survey seems to be an assessment of the current views of teachers who follow the Islamic faith, which I assume means, at least on Java, most teachers. I wonder if that reflects a shift in views toward the cultural/religious conservative end of the spectrum or if its pretty much the thinking (or lack thereof) that has been in vogue for years and years.

It very well may be the thinking that has been in place for years. There are a certain amount of people in all parts of society that would like to see a Caliphate. But if you begin to break down what all that means it would be varied and complex. Indonesian has always been, and is, a religious society. Many of the people are not ready/willing to accept some things seen as normal/accepted in the West. Therefore when being reported on or viewed, from a Western persective, (not meaning the JG) would/could be reported as repressive.

 

[Dan]

So, I'm thinking this is like the Banda Aceh model, but on a national scale. I think stuff like this is actually enforced over there. They also have special surprises for gays and pre-marriage teen passion. For those who are ultra-conservative, all the above is good news and a step in the right direction. For others, this would be a total nightmare. I'm sure there's some who simply won't care, and would just adapt to the silly rules as needed. I probably fall into the latter category - okay maybe a little bit of a bad dream, but not a total nightmare. By taking this "don't care" approach, is there some other major point or concept that is not being considered? How might one's life be affected in some way where they just can't take it anymore?

In Banda Aceh, sure, the Wilayatul Hisbah (morality police) are seen frequently and engaged in a variety of activities related to the Acehnese expression of Islam. Some of it is policing morality, what the world knows about Aceh's local adat. Other aspects of it are... less well-known.

Shortly after the birth of my first child, a member of the morality police came to lecture myself and my wife on my husbandly duties. She recited verses from the Qur'an and some ahadith that implored me to assist my wife in stimulating her breast milk production. Then, she proceeded to teach me how to massage my wife's breasts for this purpose.

Looking back, she was ultimately just a lactation expert. The religious flavor was important for an Acehnese audience. Most of the locals seem content with this arrangement. What we as foreigners do or say or advise is ultimately not necessarily in harmony with what the indigenous peoples may want for themselves. That doesn't mean you should express apathy, it means that you should pick and choose your battles and acknowledge that you're a guest in their country. Many of the locals will respect and understand that you're a foreigner. As long as you aren't openly engaged in harming the perceived peace of the community you'll not just be tolerated, you'll probably feel quite welcome.

 

[Chiron]

In Banda Aceh, sure, the Wilayatul Hisbah (morality police) are seen frequently and engaged in a variety of activities related to the Acehnese expression of Islam. Some of it is policing morality, what the world knows about Aceh's local adat. Other aspects of it are... less well-known.

Shortly after the birth of my first child, a member of the morality police came to lecture myself and my wife on my husbandly duties. She recited verses from the Qur'an and some ahadith that implored me to assist my wife in stimulating her breast milk production. Then, she proceeded to teach me how to massage my wife's breasts for this purpose.

Looking back, she was ultimately just a lactation expert. The religious flavor was important for an Acehnese audience. Most of the locals seem content with this arrangement. What we as foreigners do or say or advise is ultimately not necessarily in harmony with what the indigenous peoples may want for themselves. That doesn't mean you should express apathy, it means that you should pick and choose your battles and acknowledge that you're a guest in their country. Many of the locals will respect and understand that you're a foreigner. As long as you aren't openly engaged in harming the perceived peace of the community you'll not just be tolerated, you'll probably feel quite welcome.

Thanks Dan. Even though it's a very specific example, there's some very good points to think about here that I think translate into many other situations.

 

[Fred]

Argumentum ad hominem, Fred.

Read the post - It was making a wrong assumption - Oh no, more "assumptions" (Also known as "Total bollocks").