A refreshing view on race.

[harryopal1]

I had this pop up in an email this morning from Melbourne. Given the often overt negativity displayed by many other nationals towards Chinese it was pleasant to see a rational statement about the success of many Chinese.

Why do Chinese Indonesians or Chinese Indonesian descendants tend to be much wealthier than the rest of the population in Indonesia?


Ikhsan Radjab, Citizen of Indonesia

As a child, I once asked my father this exact same question. He answered my question based on his anecdotal experience which is probably not accurate, but could give some insight. His answer was:
When I was just a little boy, Chinese Indonesian was just as poor as the rest of us. They started as small business. But what makes them able to expand the business more rapidly because they invested heavily in their business. They give their blood, sweat and tears developing their family business so that their family could one day live comfortably. If they earn Rp1000, they will only use Rp100 to indulge on their personal hobby. They will then use the rest of the money to expand their business. The were more than happy to hold off buying fancy shirts and jewelries. In short, they were willing to give up personal posession to expand the business.

As I get older, I see that there are Rich Chinese Indonesian and there are Poor Chinese Indonesian, just as there are Rich Native Indonesian and Poor Native Indonesian. It all down to personal effort and/or luck really, as we can't really put Chinese Indonesian or Native Indonesian for that matter in one big stereotype.

Personally, I think it that "Native and Chinese Indonesian" dichotomy is an outdated concept. Because while their ancestors came from China, they ARE Indonesian, they were born in Indonesia, speak Indonesian, pay taxes in Indonesia, hold Indonesian passport, familiar with Indonesian pop culture and so on. Sure, they may have squint eyes and fairer skin than Native Indonesian, but that doesn't make them any less Indonesian than Native.

 

[Puspawarna]

A great sentiment.

When I first moved to Indonesia, I remember having a conversation with a lovely young pribumi woman. I asked her a question about whether her officemates participated in some Indonesian national celebration (it must have been Independence Day or Kartini Day, something like that - not a religious holiday). She looked shocked at my question and said, "Carol, they are Chinese, not Indonesian!"

Me: Um, what country were they born in?
Her: Indonesia.
Me: And what language do they speak?
Her: Indonesian.
Me: And what country do they live in?
Her: Indonesia.
Me: And what country issues their passports?
Her: Indonesia.
Me: So, they were born in Indonesia, live in Indonesia, speak Indonesian, and have Indonesian passports. Seems to me that they are Indonesian.
Her: You don't understand! They are Chinese, not Indonesian!

She was right that I didn't understand the dynamic: I was shocked and amazed by our conversation. I understand things better now, and wouldn't be so surprised. I still think it's awful though.

Hopefully things are improving and are better than when I had that conversation in the mid-1990s.

 

[harryopal1]

It seems to be the nature of all races to believe they are superior to the rest. The extent to which that sense of superiority diminishes their capacity to relate to other peoples can not only create very narrow, insular groups of travellers or expatriates but it can come back and bite them on the collective bum.

In India I found that many people, on first meeting a stranger would assess their caste and social standing. If they deemed the person above them the manner would be fawning. If they were equal... everything was wonderful. If they were below them then often that person was treated with contempt. That seemed to be the prevailing cultural sense of Indians in Kenya and so often local Kenyans, particularly as servants were often treated rather badly. The same had prevailed in Uganda. So when their were riots and disturbances the Indian shops were targeted first and often Indians were attacked.

It was interesting that during the independence struggles in South Africa the Indians threw in their lot with the ANC. It was noticeable that in Australia there were often social functions which were either African Kenyan or Indian Kenyan. On the other hand South African functions were mixed and the relationship between Indian and African South Africans was friendly.

As with all generalizations there are exceptions with many Indian expatriates and Indian nationals who do not carry this sense of superiority which can end up cutting both ways.

Another exception is that of Australians who are all better sports-persons, more heroic in battle and more generous than people of any other nations. (Did I mention that I am Australian?)

 

[Anglian]

Your last paragraph is very true Harryp, I sat in a pub in KL watching the final of the rugby, England v Australia, with 3 Aussie mates, when Johnny scored that winning goal for England, it went very, very quiet, the only comment was, We will have to cut that pommie bastards legs of when he comes to Australia, true sporting spirit

 

[vocalneal]

We will have to cut that pommie bastards legs of when he comes to Australia,

All meant in jest or course, its rugby.

 

[vocalneal]

All meant in jest or course, its rugby.

(Did I mention that I am Australian?)

With a name with Opal in it, no didn't have a clue

To me underground is a commuter rail system no somewhere one lives

 

[macvert]

With a name with Opal in it, no didn't have a cllue

I thought there was half a chance Harry could have been of German descent .... or a very slim chance he may have been Ethiopian ....

 

[harryopal1]

I thought there was half a chance Harry could have been of German descent .... or a very slim chance he may have been Ethiopian ....

Fair crack of the whip! Stone the crows! If you don't smarten up I might put the Australian curse on you.

As in: " May all your chooks turn into emus and kick down your dunny door."

 

[john madden]

I thought he was one of the Kerry O'Pals.

 

[nosox]

kind of on topic, got into a conversation with a farmer on my bike ride the other day. When he said he hadn't seen me come by for a while he referred to me as "bule". He then immediately apologized for using the term.(I graciously accepted) We went on to have a good conflab for 1/2 hour or so.

 

[Dan]

I had this pop up in an email this morning from Melbourne. Given the often overt negativity displayed by many other nationals towards Chinese it was pleasant to see a rational statement about the success of many Chinese.

Why do Chinese Indonesians or Chinese Indonesian descendants tend to be much wealthier than the rest of the population in Indonesia?

When I was just a little boy, Chinese Indonesian was just as poor as the rest of us. They started as small business. But what makes them able to expand the business more rapidly because they invested heavily in their business. They give their blood, sweat and tears developing their family business so that their family could one day live comfortably. If they earn Rp1000, they will only use Rp100 to indulge on their personal hobby. They will then use the rest of the money to expand their business. The were more than happy to hold off buying fancy shirts and jewelries. In short, they were willing to give up personal posession to expand the business.

What is the reverse reading of this "pleasant" analysis of Chinese Indonesian success? That the indigenous people are shiftless, lazy and bad with money. You know, racism.

Sometimes we hear that it's the *culture*, you see. If that's the case, why are the thoroughly sinicized Vietnamese in the same boat? It's the same in every country in Southeast Asia. I don't think we should undervalue the reality that China is the world's largest labor pool and having closer connections to that gives you a significant competitive advantage. Similarly, Chinese trade links have been in the region for over a thousand years. I don't think this is really a recent or *new* phenomenon, but it does have explanations outside of "they're just better than the locals."

 

[harryopal1]

I don't believe the conclusion of the argument presented by Ikhsan Rdjab is that the Chinese succeed because "they're just better than the locals."

It is hardly racist to suggest that perhaps the percentage of indigenous people driven to succeed is less than the percentage of Chinese determined to gain monetary and material advantage. The drive to succeed often represents a priority that costs in terms of family relationships, time given to children, recreation and other non material matters.

In Malaysia the Malays are often derided by other races for having a "tidak apa apa" attitude. Personally I rather liked that laid back less stressful atititude to life.

We are all aware of the stereotypical antisemitism that says all Jews are money hungry. I spent a few years in the schmatas business otherwise known as the rag trade or textile and clothing industry. In Flinders Lane in Melbourne perhaps the majority of the businesses were Ex-European Jewish owned. I had the opportunity to socialize a lot with Jewish people and concluded that the success of so many Jews could be traced to a history of persecution that created a need to have portable skills and a readiness to quickly adapt to changed circumstances. I was enormously impressed by the respect that Jewish families had for the natural intelligence of their children. As an Australian I was accustomed to an attitude towards children asking too many questions to be told to shut up or go and play. "Intelligence" is one of those difficult things to define but in a general sense I suspect that intelligence tests made across a spectrum of Jewish young people 5 to 20 years old would measure much higher than a similar aged sample across the general Australian population. Intelligence or maturity?

When I reflect on my own childhood and total lack of awareness or maturity compared with the overall maturity of young Australians today I have to concede the present generation are a lot smarter.

Generalizing about any groups of people or races is fraught with potential for exposing bigotry and prejudice but that does not mean that one cannot make some generalizations which reflect how things are. The essential thing is that we do not allow any glib generalizations to lead to denial of opportunity to other individuals whatever group or race to which they belong.

 

[R Cameron]

What is the reverse reading of this "pleasant" analysis of Chinese Indonesian success? That the indigenous people are shiftless, lazy and bad with money. You know, racism.

Sometimes we hear that it's the *culture*, you see.

I think it is your culture that provides you this analysis. You read a description of ethnically Chinese Indonesians saving money and being devoted to their business and you see the inverse as something offensive, "shiftless, lazy and bad with money."

Saving money rather than enjoying it in the present is not a value judgement, different cultures esteem them differently, so for you to call one "bad with money" is only revealing your own personal beliefs.

Income and family time are typically in conflict, so for one culture to see the 'proper' balance at 80:20 while another sees it as 20:80 is not a value judgement. The inverse of "hard working" can just as easily be "devoted father" rather than "lazy".

 

[Dan]

I think it is your culture that provides you this analysis. You read a description of ethnically Chinese Indonesians saving money and being devoted to their business and you see the inverse as something offensive, "shiftless, lazy and bad with money."

Saving money rather than enjoying it in the present is not a value judgement, different cultures esteem them differently, so for you to call one "bad with money" is only revealing your own personal beliefs.

Income and family time are typically in conflict, so for one culture to see the 'proper' balance at 80:20 while another sees it as 20:80 is not a value judgement. The inverse of "hard working" can just as easily be "devoted father" rather than "lazy".

See? All we need is mental gymnastics to perceive a lack of success and opportunity as being differing priorities rather than privilege.

 

[Asun]

Rather than accusing each other of racism and mental gymnastics, do we actually have real data about this from the census? Can we get data about mean and median income, wealth, education grouped by race/ethnicity in Indonesia? Data can't be racist, can it?

 

[HeikkiL]

Don't know was it just odd, single happening or a deja vu of old (not-so-good) times, but a church-friend of my wife, a young Indo-Chinese student, was robbed and almost mugged in a bus last Sunday by a gang of 6 men - guess you could call them "pribumi"? He managed to save himself by jumping out of a moving bus and injuring himself a bit.

 

[Anglian]

My old Chinese bosses were paranoid about Indonesians stealing from the company, the only case they had was a couple took several life vests, I tried to explain that all companies over the world have this problem, I told them about a case a BA, a friend had to go round the engineering base and fit 15 vises, he said he would be back the next day to seal them into the work benches, anyway when he returned next day 8 had gone, his only comment was, Well that saved a job,
Personally working with Chinese Indonesians and pribumi, there is no difference, they knew there job and got on with it, they worked well together,

 

[William King]

Rather than accusing each other of racism and mental gymnastics, do we actually have real data about this from the census? Can we get data about mean and median income, wealth, education grouped by race/ethnicity in Indonesia? Data can't be racist, can it?

The use of it can be.

Besides, I don't see how data can tell you who is lazy and who is not... It will just paint a picture of wealth distribution.

 

[Scooterindo]

She looked shocked at my question and said, "Carol, they are Chinese, not Indonesian!"
You don't understand! They are Chinese, not Indonesian!
Hopefully things are improving and are better than when I had that conversation in the mid-1990s.

Not really to be honest with you Puss, as the father of a couple of "anak indo" I still get regularly asked where my kids "come from" as the general mentality of the average man on the street is anyone who doesn't look like they do aren't Indonesians.
Like you said, they were born in Jakarta to an Indonesian mother, hold Indonesian passports, have lived here all their lives and speak the language fluently. Yet are still not classed as Indonesians by other Indonesians.

I still get a giggle out of seeing the shock on peoples faces when the boys speak to them in Bahasa. Imagine us saying to a black man or a Chinese man in London "wow you can speak English"

 

[Puspawarna]

I still get a giggle out of seeing the shock on peoples faces when the boys speak to them in Bahasa. Imagine us saying to a black man or a Chinese man in London "wow you can speak English"

I know what you mean. My son's first language was Indonesian - back when he was a little white kid with shiny blonde hair. The locals couldn't get over it - it was so much fun to watch everyone react. (He was very talkative and adored all the attention).

When he was 4, we moved to Egypt for six years and when we came back we were amazed to discover that everyone still remembered the Indonesian-speaking blonde kid: people would stop us in the mall, the dentist was thrilled to have him back, the barber remembered him...Sadly, however, he'd lost all of his Indonesian by then.