4/11, 25/11 and 2/12 anti-Ahok demonstrations

[Dan]

Some years back I posted Pew's research into Muslim attitudes concerning shari'a on LIIEF. The section on Indonesia was not a surprise to me, but most other forum members rejected their findings off hand suggesting instead that the respondents didn't understand the questions or had concerns about the methodology. I argued that my experience demonstrated a vastly different country, that Indonesian Muslims were more religious and more in favor of religious law than our members believed and that ostensibly "moderate" organizations like NU and Muhammadiyah are nothing of the sort, that very little separates them from the more hardline "Islamist" organizations.

After these events, I am curious if any of our long term forum members see things differently now?

Also, I enjoyed the article linked above. I appreciated his insights into the internal divisions occurring in NU and Muhammadiyah over these rallies, but I am concerned his analysis is more so based on their reputation than what they actually do and say. This is not the first time they have colluded with "Islamist" organizations, and I suspect their jurists are largely sympathetic to their aims, including and perhaps ESPECIALLY the enforcement of shari'a for Muslims.

 

[Dan]

To clarify, by "collusion" in this case I mean that NU has publicly supported the MUI fatwa, even if they encouraged their followers to stay away from the rally. Just because they stayed home does not mean they are against blasphemy laws... and quite far from it! NU is perhaps the biggest obstacle to overturning blasphemy laws; they're its biggest supporter.

Muhammadiyah being silent here is not a surprise to me, they have worked hand in hand with Hizb ut-Tahrir on multiple occasions and I suspect they largely sympathize with desire for khilafa.

 

[Anglian]

In some ways Dan I think yo are correct, it's really hard I think to determine those against, bit like Trumps supporters now owning up that they will vote for him, but my wife's Kampung definitely has gone hard line with many ladies now wandering around the kampung fully covered, I don't know if people really understand the implications, I think for many of the poorer, nothing will change as they probably wouldn't notice, for the rich, I think big changes to their life style

 

[fastpitch17]

Dan, I still disagree. The reason is, the youth. Not so much the kampung kids who are preached to day after day that thieir lives is gods will, but the city kids. Those kids who will be eventually be the new group of politicians, business leaders, and in some cases, religious officials. The city kids don't seem to be buying into all this gods will stuff and many have shied away from being the followers they were expected to be by their religions leaders. Look at the Facebook postings from the youth under 30 and you can see a condemnation of the current happenings in Indonesia in regards to tolerance and a blasphemy charge. Sure, there are still youthful trouble makers in the cities but those will never reach a position of leadership. I think the youth will change Indonesia.

 

[Nimbus]

While I definitely see a general shift toward a more religious attitude in the last couple of decades, I see the demonstration more as a show of wounded pride rather than pious outrage. It was started by the usual suspects, funded by political opponents, but now it's mainstreaming. A large part of organized religion is a shared sense of identity, and this blasphemy is felt as an insult toward Muslims. This narrative works better than expected because (rightly or wrongly) Ahok has a habit of insulting his employees.

 

[Daniel50]

While I definitely see a general shift toward a more religious attitude in the last couple of decades, I see the demonstration more as a show of wounded pride rather than pious outrage. It was started by the usual suspects, funded by political opponents, but now it's mainstreaming. A large part of organized religion is a shared sense of identity, and this blasphemy is felt as an insult toward Muslims. This narrative works better than expected because (rightly or wrongly) Ahok has a habit of insulting his employees.

Alright agenda pushed by a cast of characters to play the religion card, it works even better then they had hoped. Also, Ahok has been more vocal in anti corruption and seen as taking action. Many Muslim people like Ahok, in Jakarta. Many people bused in from out of province for the rally and paid. But the fact there can even be a blasphemy charge period does not bode well for society, in my opinion, and then the fact it seems to be based on an editing job, this all seems absurd. I am not sure one can draw parallels to Turkey or other nations where Islam is the main religion but there is an element which are more pro Islam in culture and daily life. This may be more a part of the religion, I don't know. The degree to which this can blend with a form of democracy is unknown. It appears to want to undermine/alter basic human rights, that do not agree with some of these tenants. I do not know enough about the religion to really comment on these.

 

[dafluff]

Time article on the blasphemy trial. http://time.com/4598716/ahok-trial-governor-jakarta-indonesia-blasphemy-islam/

I think it is time that the western media put to bed the fiction that Indonesia is "secular". It never has been.

 

[Asun]

Time article on the blasphemy trial. http://time.com/4598716/ahok-trial-governor-jakarta-indonesia-blasphemy-islam/

I think it is time that the western media put to bed the fiction that Indonesia is "secular". It never has been.

I've rarely heard of western media putting Indonesia as "secular". However, there have been many instances where Indonesia is described as "moderate" brand of Islam. Can we remove the "moderate" pretense now?

 

[PhilippeD]

Time article on the blasphemy trial. http://time.com/4598716/ahok-trial-governor-jakarta-indonesia-blasphemy-islam/

I think it is time that the western media put to bed the fiction that Indonesia is "secular". It never has been.

I love the part where 45% said it was culprit and 88.5% said they have no idea of what he said!!!!

 

[Nimbus]

I've rarely heard of western media putting Indonesia as "secular". However, there have been many instances where Indonesia is described as "moderate" brand of Islam. Can we remove the "moderate" pretense now?

My answer is no. Moderate is relative, Indonesia is moderate when you compare it with just about any Islamic middle eastern and south asian country. In Saudi Arabia women can't even drive, and theft is punished by dismemberment. In Pakistan women are routinely subjected to honor killing.

While most of Indonesian society is comprised of conservative muslims and Islam has a tremendous influence, constitutionally Indonesia is not an Islamic country. She's not secular, but she's not Islamic either. Compare that to Malaysia where Islam is the state religion and Brunei Darussalam, an actual sharia country.

If not for politics nobody would notice this blasphemy. Not so different from USA where Trump supporters and Republicans are calling to put Clinton in jail for mishandling emails, yet today they are considering Petraeus for Clinton's old job (Secretary of State). This is the same Petraeus who had to resign from his position as the director of the CIA because he mishandled classified information; he was actually convicted and fined for it. Apparently mishandling emails is not ok for Democrats but it's fine for Republicans.

 

[JB-indo]

Politics, they will have to convict Ahok to prevent riots. Just a fact. Elections ahead, so conservative forces are at work using their influence getting people on the street to demonstrate and riot...

 

[Tupai Hitam]

Politics, they will have to convict Ahok to prevent riots. Just a fact. Elections ahead, so conservative forces are at work using their influence getting people on the street to demonstrate and riot...

No. It's the corrupt political/military elite at work, dallying with radical Islam to throw out an honest person. If Ahok is taken down, then who will be next? You're falling for their bullshit if you believe that Ahok has to be convicted to prevent riots. It's not a fact. The FPI is a terrorists-for-hire group and its leaders should be dealt with harshly. Problem is, FPI's creation was funded by the Indonesian military (and Islam-oriented politicians) and the group still has plenty of paymasters with vested interests. Can Jokowi deal with the puppet-masters exploiting radical Islam? Perhaps not. Would Indonesia consider a re-imagining (on a larger scale) of the 1984 Tanjung Priok massacre? Definitely not. Jokowi just has to carefully and politely explain to the nation that exploitation of religious conservatism for the sake of restoring corrupt leadership to Jakarta is dumb. The FPI tap can still be turned on and off at will. Its leaders could all be arrested for treason -- they advocate replacing Pancasila with Wahabbism and they demand the murder of Ahok. Visit their headquarters in Petamburan and ask them why they have never protested against the Alexis and Malioboro brothels, whereas they've trashed tiny bars that didn't pay protection money. Or why they sought money, alcohol and white prostitutes when trying to get Playboy Indonesia magazine shut down. Or why they worked with the Kalijodo preman. If treasonous Indonesian politicians want to incite riots to bring down Ahok and then Jokowi, the military will have to decide whether or not it supports a creeping sharia-veneered coup. Pity those who cannot just pack up and leave. Shame on the Yudhoyono clan and huge shame on Anies Baswedan and especially Sandi Uno for not coming out and denouncing the manipulation of radical Islam for political goals. I wonder what Sandi says these days to his old business partner Edwin Soeryadjaya, a staunch Christian.

 

[Anglian]

I believe if they held the election today Ahok would win,

 

[ChrisTex]

I believe if they held the election today Ahok would win,

A number of my friends believe the same after I asked them about it. Go to the Jakarta Post and Jakarta Globe articles and again you have most people in support of Ahok.

At Central Park Mall, there is a booth that is selling Ahok shirts and where you can even make a donation. Yes I am planning on buying one.

 

[Asun]

The Indonesian government recently has been relentless in attempting to collect more taxes. Why can't they also try to audit the books of MUI, FPI et al? Even though those might be tax exempt organizations, but their financials are still fair game to ensure no hokey pokey going on. This will essentially cut off their funding to initiate those riff raffs. Geez, do I have to do all the thinking here?

 

[Anglian]

The Indonesian government recently has been relentless in attempting to collect more taxes. Why can't they also try to audit the books of MUI, FPI et al? Even though those might be tax exempt organizations, but their financials are still fair game to ensure no hokey pokey going on. This will essentially cut off their funding to initiate those riff raffs. Geez, do I have to do all the thinking here?

What a brilliant idea, might find a few of the riff raff and get them imprisoned for tax evasion, bit like the FBI got Capone

 

[dafluff]

The Politics of Taking Offense: The Economist article on the events surrounding the blasphemy trials.

http://www.economist.com/news/asia/...lerance-now-doubt-persecution-christian-mayor

 

[Daniel50]

Is the Ahok situation much different then London (sarcasm)? In London they elected a Muslim mayor for the first time. Where is the charge for blasphemy and the huge parade of people opposed to a Muslim being mayor and then perhaps jail time for the Muslim mayor based on an edited text? Also, people posting You Tube videos with a bounty for the London mayors's head but no one bothering to arrest that person. If someone was not used to this it would seem absurd. I am sure it does seem absurd to many people but now what? Will Ahok go to jail?

 

[Jarno]

So apparently someone managed to report Habib Rizieq for blasphemy regarding some remarks he made around Christmas, lets see how that goes down. Fight fire with fire!

 

[R Cameron]

So apparently someone managed to report Habib Rizieq for blasphemy regarding some remarks he made around Christmas, lets see how that goes down. Fight fire with fire!

I don't want to defend the guy, or attack Ahok, but he made the remarks as a private citizen in a private context, while Ahok made his remarks at a public event while "on the clock" in his government uniform.