Mobil Rakyat...new cars

[jstar]

The last Nissan dealer produced literature that had the white surcharge listed. I haven’t noticed any mention online.

Yeah they’re quite good at hiding that.

What time do you wake up btw?

 

[Helpful Herbert]

I want to upgrade our Innova and I see they now have a Kijang Innova Zenix Hybrid (whatever that means). Any info about this?

 

[jstar]

I want to upgrade our Innova and I see they now have a Kijang Innova Zenix Hybrid (whatever that means). Any info about this?

Here is some more info:

Mobil Rakyat...new cars

Talking about the financial aspects of EVs: The government will provide incentives for electric vehicles. It is estimated that starting June 2023 subsidies for electric vehicles will be in place. However, there are conditions so that electric cars can get incentives. According to the Minister...

www.expatindo.org

Available in three types: G, V and Q, with two engine options: gasoline (G and V) and hybrid (all types). Only available with a CVT transmission.

The Zenix nomenclature has to do with something similar as the Veloz; export. They think the name will appeal more to other countries. And Kijang as name is really specific melayu… probably doesn’t sound so well for others. So, the Kijang Innova has been exported already, that is to other ASEAN countries, India, the Middle East, Oceania but without using the name "Kijang". Some names of the Innova were abroad: Unser (Malaysia & Singapore), Zace (Taiwan), Tamaraw/Revo (Philippines), Qualis (India) and Condor in South Africa. (I had to look that up.)

Of course Toyota Astra has its own explanation: “Zenix is a combination of words and letters: Zenith and X. Zenith means peak performance. Meanwhile, X represents a crossover. So this is a crossover car that provides high performance”

In the name of Science I‘m imploring you to take this one Herbert, so we have some first hand experience with this non-Li-Ion hybrid technology which is rather unique… (I’m wondering a bit what the battery placement does to the fertility of men?)

 

[Hawk256]

In the name of Science I‘m imploring you to take this one Herbert, so we have some first hand experience with this non-Li-Ion hybrid technology which is rather unique… (I’m wondering a bit what the battery placement does to the fertility of men?)

Given the much higher cost at purchase and the fact that you will eventually have to replace the batteries (as well as more possilbe things to go wrong), I'm not convinced that you are saving any money in the long run. Not really a fan of being a tester for new technology that I have to pay extra for. Petrol in Indoseia isn't that expensive to start with compared to other places.

 

[jstar]

Makes me think of this: Toyota introduced the bZ4X in Europe for instance, an electric SUV that is the first of a whole series of bZ models which are (B)EVs. That bZ4X is rather disappointing and doesn’t sell well.

Anyway, halfway 2022 Toyota Indonesia was showing the Innova EV Concept to the world, a study model which would also be fully electric. It’s rather unclear if the new hybrid is a predecessor or a replacement of that car and whether there will be really a full EV of the Innova.

 

[Wisnu]

The IIMS 2023 will be held next week in Jakarta. Wish they display the 7-seater PHEV SUV there. Unfortunately, not able to visit this time; hv asked my BIL though. If anybody here visit the show, love to hear their opinion.

 

[Jaime C]

Given the much higher cost at purchase and the fact that you will eventually have to replace the batteries (as well as more possilbe things to go wrong), I'm not convinced that you are saving any money in the long run. Not really a fan of being a tester for new technology that I have to pay extra for. Petrol in Indoseia isn't that expensive to start with compared to other places.

The Toyota EV battery on the hybrid version has an 8 year warranty. I think the hybrid version starts at about 450 jt.

 

[Jaime C]

What time do you wake up btw?

My sleep schedule is often a bit weird, as I’m often up during US working hours. So I might sleep 2-3 hours at night, and 4-5 hours in the late morning or early afternoon.

My wife went to a Toyota sales event at a mall today. They were offering all sorts of stuff for financing, free insurance for 2 years, 0% interest, 0% downpayment, etc. A manager said he could probably get her an extra 2 jt off, but he had to check.

 

[Hawk256]

The Toyota EV battery on the hybrid version has an 8 year warranty. I think the hybrid version starts at about 450 jt.

8 years is about right but then you (or whoever buys it used) will be the hook for thousands of US $ for new batteries. Keep in mind they will constantly degrading for that time as well. 450 juta is for the hybrid G base model. I haven't seen one of those available yet at a dealer. Most of the dealers only have the Modelista at about 615 juta or maybe a hybrid V at 532 juta. Just went through the steps of buying an Innova for the dealer to blow it up at the end.

 

[jstar]

8 years is about right but then you (or whoever buys it used) will be the hook for thousands of US $ for new batteries

The Ni-Mh ($2.000) is much much cheaper than the Li-Ion ($11.000). That’s a sales argument they use as well. For that amount of money driving another 8 years or more (!) is not so bad. You can’t compare it with another hybrid let alone a BEV.

The thing I would be concerned about is the automatic recharging from the engine or using the brakes for instance. With a lithium you can recharge whenever you want and don’t have to worry about the current charge in the battery. But it shouldn’t go completely empty while with this nickel-metal hydride that would be advisable to avoid a ‘memory effect’. (Although not all agree, it’s worse for Ni-Cd.) Of course they‘d need some smart BMS (battery management system) then.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Can you still buy a normal Innova? Don't fancy batteries under the seat!

 

[jstar]

Now that’s disappointing. But yes, there’s a normal 2 liter gasoline (ICE) version available. The diesel is gone.

 

[Hawk256]

Can you still buy a normal Innova? Don't fancy batteries under the seat!

We were going to buy the V model. Has most everything you want for 467 juta. There is G base model but missing a lot of the stuff the V and higher have.

 

[Hawk256]

The Ni-Mh ($2.000) is much much cheaper than the Li-Ion ($11.000). That’s a sales argument they use as well. For that amount of money driving another 8 years or more (!) is not so bad. You can’t compare it with another hybrid let alone a BEV.

But you are paying 100 juta give or take at the beginning. I can buy a lot of gas for 100 juta. Plus I would know I'm always ticking to the 30 juta battery replacement. The batteries, no matter what the chemisty will have to be disposed of is a safe manner. I don't imagine that will always be free. You can't just dump them in the bin. To each his own but doen't make long term sense to me at this point. If petrol was triple the price it is now, then it MIGHT make more sense.

 

[jstar]

It depends a bit how you use the car. In a city, when there are many stops and de-acceleration , a hybrid (HEV) is most profitable. (It charges the battery more,) Now, the most economical hybrid Toyota (which is much smaller than this Innova and probably has a more efficient electrical system) is using -on average- 1 liter of gasoline per 24 kilometer. That‘s real life and no theoretical WLTP bs.

The Innova will never make that. Having said that, even if it would be 1:15 it still a 50% improvement over the guestimated 1:10 of a standard ICE version.

And yes, with a low price of gasoline that might not be very interesting. I don’t know yet what the road tax implications are and if you could make some money there. But I also think one also needs to consider the environmental aspects of electric/electrified engines vs. combustion only. In the EU, the sales of new cars with combustion engines will be forbidden as of 2030. And as we speak, many cities already have low emission zones. It’s just a matter of time before the South East Asian countries follow. Of course the governments and manufacturers should take (more) action to really make a change and curb pollution.

 

[Hawk256]

But I also think one also needs to consider the environmental aspects of electric/electrified engines vs. combustion only. In the EU, the sales of new cars with combustion engines will be forbidden as of 2030. And as we speak, many cities already have low emission zones. It’s just a matter of time before the South East Asian countries follow. Of course the governments and manufacturers should take (more) action to really make a change and curb pollution.

Those are things to consider but the electric/electrified engines side isn't the clear winner like most people want to believe. Batteries of all chemistries are designed with rare elemements( LiON at the top), so we a striping the earth of those just like we are oil and coal. They will one day run out too. It's dangerous work mining those materials and manufacting them is not "clean". How do we safely dispose of the enviromentaly hazardous batteries when they die? Can you imagine how many batteries will be out there when countires stop producing combustion engines? In Indondisia 70% of power plants are running off of coal so the elecricity to charge all these batteries has to come from somewhere. The answer for now is more coal. The combustion engine vs electric/electrified engine arguement is like borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. We are trading one problem for another problem. When they outlaw gas stoves and make all gardening equipment run off of electricity, it will stress the grids even more. What used to be an oil monopy will become an electric monopoly. Don't see the utopian future in electric cars at this point.

 

[Hawk256]

The Innova will never make that. Having said that, even if it would be 1:15 it still a 50% improvement over the guestimated 1:10 of a standard ICE version.

I don't think those are the right numbers. The standard Innova already gets 15 km per liter based on what I have read. The hybrid version is at 20 km per liter again based on what I have read. Nowhere near a 50% improvement. If you are drving from Jakarta to Bandung the benefit will shrink to almost zero but if you are constantly stopping and going in Central you would experice the most benefit.

 

[jstar]

I don't think those are the right numbers. The standard Innova already gets 15 km per liter based on what I have read.

Nope. My numbers were already very optimistic. Based on the three cars (2 gasoline, 1 diesel) in my family-in-law, this is closer to the truth:

Berapa konsumsi BBM Toyota Innova? Konsumsi Innova bensin mencapai sekitar 8-10 km/liter pada rute dalam kota dan 12-14 km/liter pada rute luar kota. Sementara Toyota Kijang Innova bermesin diesel bisa mencapai 13 km/liter untuk rute dalam kota dan 18 km/liter untuk rute luar kota melalui jalan tol.

Besides in combination with electrification (so the hybrids), the Toyota engines are not fuel efficient at all. The TR engine was developed in 2004 and the 1.998 cc gasoline engine really likes to drink.

Don’t ever trust official numbers. That’s why I called (the rather recent) WLTP method . That test procedure is much better than the previous NEDC but still, you can never ever make the numbers they published. Even if they claim it’s on real driving conditions. The same for EV’s btw, you can assume you will only get 80% of their published WLTP range.

 

[Hawk256]

Don’t ever trust official numbers. That’s why I called (the rather recent) WLTP method . That test procedure is much better than the previous NEDC but still, you can never ever make the numbers they published. Even if they claim it’s on real driving conditions. The same for EV’s btw, you can assume you will only get 80% of their published WLTP range.

Frustrating that we don't have numbers that mean anything then. Sorry but I can't put a lot of faith in numbers from family members either on a vehicle I don't own. The numbers posted for my BR-V are very similar to my personal experice over 4 years, that is the only thing I know for sure. My point however remains the same, IMHO electric or hybrid cars aren't the savior that many people want you to believe.

 

[jstar]

I’m not an EVangelist if you think that. If you want to have a discussion about measures by governments to curb pollution, the fuel ‘of the future’, and whether electric vehicles deplete natural resources as lithium and nickel yes or no and if biodiesel or synthetic diesel or hydrogen will ever make it, perhaps it’s better to start a new thread. Perfectly happy and willing to participate.

Anyway, everybody can believe whatever they want and decide for themselves how important fuel consumption is in their decision to purchase a new car.

Whatever you do, take what you read in brochures with a large grain of salt. I personally look at sites like (the Japanese) e-nenpi where the consumption of existing cars that are registered (proven by number plate) is kept in the system over many years. Quite interesting to see the difference between the published (i.e. ‘promised’) WLTP and the real life fuel consumption.

This is an example, I selected a car that has similar characteristics as an Innova to keep it relevant: