Former Indonesian Citizen with non-WNI Wife

[IceNagas]

Hi all,

I'm still very new to all these processes so please forgive my ignorance I'm a former Indonesian citizen (currently a Canadian citizen), married to a Canadian woman.

I have a one year old son who was born in Canada (he's a dual citizen of Canada and a European country from his mom, but not a WNI since I had lost my Indonesian citizenship at the time he was born).

What are my options as far as living in Indonesia with my family is concerned?

I vaguely know that my (WNI) parents can sponsor me for KITAS, but what should I do about my wife and son, both not Indonesian citizens? How about work permit?

We are planning to one day relocate to Indonesia, so I thought it would be good to kind of weigh my options, and familiarize myself with the process.

Thanks, and keep up the good work.

 

[Davita]

Hi IceNagas and welcome to the forum from another Canuck (Vancouver). BTW my wife is the same as you...Indonesian born...Canadian citizen.

You can easily get one of your parents to sponsor all of you for a Sosbud (up to 6 months in RI) and then you for a Kitas (as returning WNI). Once you have your Kitas you can then sponsor your wife and child for a Kitas (as spouse/parent). All this is possible as a DIY visa.
If you click on 'Forums' at the top of this page it opens a list on how to process.

Re: a work permit...that is more difficult unless you have special skills and a Company wishes to employ you and get a Work Permit (IMTA). There are other ways to be employed but it's a bit of a grey area. Indonesia is very protective of foreigners taking jobs Indonesians can do.

 

[IceNagas]

Hi IceNagas and welcome to the forum from another Canuck (Vancouver). BTW my wife is the same as you...Indonesian born...Canadian citizen.

You can easily get one of your parents to sponsor all of you for a Sosbud (up to 6 months in RI) and then you for a Kitas (as returning WNI). Once you have your Kitas you can then sponsor your wife and child for a Kitas (as spouse/parent). All this is possible as a DIY visa.
If you click on 'Forums' at the top of this page it opens a list on how to process.

Re: a work permit...that is more difficult unless you have special skills and a Company wishes to employ you and get a Work Permit (IMTA). There are other ways to be employed but it's a bit of a grey area. Indonesia is very protective of foreigners taking jobs Indonesians can do.

Hi Davita fellow Canuck, thanks for your response That was really helpful, and I was able to find more info on this upon closer Google search.

I noticed that this would be under Index 317 of KITAS (where spouses and kids of WNAs with KITAS can also get their own KITAS status). I will look more into this sosbud visit visa so we all can live in Indonesia together while waiting out the processing time.

I'm curious about what you said about IMTA still being required even for KITAS holders (effectively, permanent residents non-citizens of Indonesia).

I'm very familiar with Canadian permanent resident status, which gives permanent residents rights for employment (except maybe in some government sectors or intelligence), but it seems to me that, even though KITAS/KITAP is probably the closest equivalent to Canadian PR, it does not automatically grant employment rights to its holders.

 

[Davita]

Hi Davita fellow Canuck, thanks for your response That was really helpful, and I was able to find more info on this upon closer Google search.

I noticed that this would be under Index 317 of KITAS (where spouses and kids of WNAs with KITAS can also get their own KITAS status). I will look more into this sosbud visit visa so we all can live in Indonesia together while waiting out the processing time.

I'm curious about what you said about IMTA still being required even for KITAS holders (effectively, permanent residents non-citizens of Indonesia).

I'm very familiar with Canadian permanent resident status, which gives permanent residents rights for employment (except maybe in some government sectors or intelligence), but it seems to me that, even though KITAS/KITAP is probably the closest equivalent to Canadian PR, it does not automatically grant employment rights to its holders.

The Indonesian Kitas/Kitap does not really resemble the Canadian PR, nor for that matter, the USA Green Card. The closest is you are eligible to pay taxes on world-wide income. It is more like a long-term visa to reside ....without any benefits.
They do have a BPJS contributory health system which your Kitas allows you and family membership. The health service, however, is in its infancy and maybe not be as suitable to what you are used to.... but doctors/hospital fees are low here. I seriously suggest Health Insurance for any major medical purpose or medical evacuation.

Getting a work permit is difficult so if your future here needs you, or wife, to work.... I suggest you research employment before committing to any visa.
You might read about WNA working without an IMTA but that is when they are WNI spouses and working in an informal sector. It's difficult to find what is informal so it remains a grey area...but I haven't heard of any major crackdowns of legitimate spouses being harassed.

 

[dafluff]

Hi Davita fellow Canuck, thanks for your response That was really helpful, and I was able to find more info on this upon closer Google search.

I noticed that this would be under Index 317 of KITAS (where spouses and kids of WNAs with KITAS can also get their own KITAS status). I will look more into this sosbud visit visa so we all can live in Indonesia together while waiting out the processing time.

I'm curious about what you said about IMTA still being required even for KITAS holders (effectively, permanent residents non-citizens of Indonesia).

I'm very familiar with Canadian permanent resident status, which gives permanent residents rights for employment (except maybe in some government sectors or intelligence), but it seems to me that, even though KITAS/KITAP is probably the closest equivalent to Canadian PR, it does not automatically grant employment rights to its holders.

Indonesia issues KITAPs to former WNIs, and these KITAPs can be applied for immediately after obtaining KITAS. They are in the same category as spousal sponsored KITAS/KITAP (family reunification), meaning that work without IMTA is a possibility. However, realistically the work will be limited to work within a family business, independent contractor work, and other informal work avenues. While the law clearly stipulates that such visa holders are allowed to work, you will have problems convincing employers and even government officials that this is the case.

 

[IceNagas]

Thanks davita/dafluff,

It becomes increasingly clear to me now that even KITAP is a limited permanent residency at best (in comparison to what permanent residency usually means in the west).

To @dafluff, can you point me to the section in the law which states that KITAP holders who are former WNIs can possibly work without IMTA? Working in family business is one possibility I have in mind, so I don't think convincing them would be much of a problem

 

[Davita]

Thanks davita/dafluff,

It becomes increasingly clear to me now that even KITAP is a limited permanent residency at best (in comparison to what permanent residency usually means in the west).

To @dafluff, can you point me to the section in the law which states that KITAP holders who are former WNIs can possibly work without IMTA? Working in family business is one possibility I have in mind, so I don't think convincing them would be much of a problem

I think you have the general message IceNagas.
Indonesia will not be as welcoming as you might envisage as a returning WNI. Envy prevails but I'm sure you already know your own people... even you changed citizenship.
My wife was the same but, due to her experience abroad, she now helps others here to think outside the kampung/religion/politics/corruption box... and into the democratic/technology future that Indonesia needs to develop to raise its status and reduce poverty. So it needs more people like you to return and influence others.
I'm sure dafluff will get back with his excellent data on law, so that you can understand the basics, but I recommend you also search to explore this grey area of what a returning WNI can, and cannot, do.

Please keep in touch as we know a senior official in government that is on the side of the Indonesian diaspora and wants to know about any civil service problems regarding returning WNI.

 

[IceNagas]

That's true. Let's keep in touch. I'm glad to hear that your wife is trying her best to at least influence the mindset of those around her.

My initial plan was to keep a valid Indonesian passport and enter as a WNI, but after the whole ordeal with Archandra Tahar two years ago, I decided to do it the right way, and you were right, I envisioned something similar to if not the west, then at least the Indian system where people of Indian descent can get some status which at least permits employment (with limited rights to property ownership), but the more research I've done, the more I realize it's even more limited than that.

I sometimes wish that I had met my wife before I naturalized, so at least my son would have been WNI when he was born (and would be able to keep it for at least 18 years due to the UU change in 2006), but timings in life do not always work the way we want them to.

 

[Davita]

Re: post # 8
Don't fret too much...the future looks more friendly than the past.
I would pay close attention to this upcoming June regional election for Governors, Mayors and others. If the FPI have influence and put their team in I would totally forget about returning to RI other than as a visitor.
Religion, as you know, and I'm not inquiring as to yours, pervades politics and the way of life in Indonesia, and suppresses development. Even here in Bali!

 

[Daniel50]

My wife now plans to become Canadian (this process has evolved without me trying to convince/get her to change). Prior she hung on to her Indonesian citizenship so it would always be easier for her to return, to Indonesia. Now there are different factors involved but one of them is it will be easier for us to leave Indonesia and return to Canada if we need/want to in the future. We will be living in Canada for now but at some point, in the future, we will probably return to Bali, as a starting point.

 

[IceNagas]

My wife now plans to become Canadian (this process has evolved without me trying to convince/get her to change). Prior she hung on to her Indonesian citizenship so it would always be easier for her to return, to Indonesia. Now there are different factors involved but one of them is it will be easier for us to leave Indonesia and return to Canada if we need/want to in the future. We will be living in Canada for now but at some point, in the future, we will probably return to Bali, as a starting point.

Hi, if you do return to Indonesia in the future after she has lost her Indonesian nationality, may I ask how you are planning to stay there? KITAS sponsorship by her parents?

 

[dafluff]

To @dafluff, can you point me to the section in the law which states that KITAP holders who are former WNIs can possibly work without IMTA? Working in family business is one possibility I have in mind, so I don't think convincing them would be much of a problem

You can refer to UU no 6, 2011, particularly Pasal 54 and Pasal 62. You can download a copy here:

http://www.imigrasi.go.id/phocadownloadpap/Undang-Undang/uu-6-tahun-2011.pdf

 

[Daniel50]

Hi, if you do return to Indonesia in the future after she has lost her Indonesian nationality, may I ask how you are planning to stay there? KITAS sponsorship by her parents?

Yes, we were in Indonesia last year and I was on a spouse sponsored KITAS, then a KITAP. Next time we will use Retirement KITAS or some variation of this eg. One retirement and one spousal or 2 retirement or 1 retirement and 1 family sponsored KITAS or her family sponsored KITAS and she can sponsor me for spousal KITAS.

 

[Davita]

Yes, we were in Indonesia last year and I was on a spouse sponsored KITAS, then a KITAP. Next time we will use Retirement KITAS or some variation of this eg. One retirement and one spousal or 2 retirement or 1 retirement and 1 family sponsored KITAS or her family sponsored KITAS and she can sponsor me for spousal KITAS.

Getting two retirement Kitas/Kitap gets expensive and getting one as spouse-sponsored get tedious.
We opted for the former as our Canadian passports & RI visas/MERPS dates align and we renew simultaneously. The latter means doubling those renewals as they are done separately....but the spouse-sponsored can be DIY.

Another idea is for your wife to get a new Indonesian passport in Indonesia, in her maiden name, just before she gets Canadian citizenship. The Canadians don't require renunciation of RI citizenship and, if she doesn't say anything to the Indonesian Embassy/Consul in Canada, no-one will be aware.
I'm not advocating she uses her RI passport but, if she ever decides to return to RI permanently, she may simply renounce her Canadian citizenship and automatically revert to WNI.
One problem I foresee is the RI passport only lasts 5 years and I believe (?) a question asked on renewal is 'do you have any other nation's citizenship'. That's an issue for the future and...who knows...but the situation in RI may change...maybe even allow dual-citizenship....

 

[Daniel50]

Getting two retirement Kitas/Kitap gets expensive and getting one as spouse-sponsored get tedious.
We opted for the former as our Canadian passports & RI visas/MERPS dates align and we renew simultaneously. The latter means doubling those renewals as they are done separately....but the spouse-sponsored can be DIY.

Another idea is for your wife to get a new Indonesian passport in Indonesia, in her maiden name, just before she gets Canadian citizenship. The Canadians don't require renunciation of RI citizenship and, if she doesn't say anything to the Indonesian Embassy/Consul in Canada, no-one will be aware.
I'm not advocating she uses her RI passport but, if she ever decides to return to RI permanently, she may simply renounce her Canadian citizenship and automatically revert to WNI.
One problem I foresee is the RI passport only lasts 5 years and I believe (?) a question asked on renewal is 'do you have any other nation's citizenship'. That's an issue for the future and...who knows...but the situation in RI may change...maybe even allow dual-citizenship....

Yes, we have decided she will use her Canadian Passport and live in Indonesia as a Canadian. She will be straightforward with authorities regarding her status (even though financially it will cost more). None of us can predict the future but she can always (unless the gov't makes it impossible) live in Indonesia and as a couple we can both return to Canada at any time should we need/want to, as opposed to getting a Visa and applying for a Canadian PR. Its as easy as getting on a plane.

 

[IceNagas]

Anyway, just some fyi, it is possible to keep a Canadian PR status indefinitely without living in Canada, provided the PR lives with his/her Canadian citizen spouse for 2 out of the last five years The spouse can't renew his/her PR card outside Canada, obviously, but they can apply for a PRTD visa (which can be multiple entry).

You can refer to UU no 6, 2011, particularly Pasal 54 and Pasal 62.

Thanks a lot!

Pasal 61 does specify that all KITAP holders under 54(1)b (spouses of WNIs) and 54(1)d (former WNIs) are allowed to work, though there is no such provision for former WNI KITAS holders (but if I remember correctly, former WNIs have much shorter waiting time to convert their KITAS to KITAP anyway).

But you're saying that, in practice, it's very hard to convince companies that former WNIs with KITAP can just work without sponsorship?

Another idea is for your wife to get a new Indonesian passport in Indonesia, in her maiden name, just before she gets Canadian citizenship. The Canadians don't require renunciation of RI citizenship and, if she doesn't say anything to the Indonesian Embassy/Consul in Canada, no-one will be aware.

I heard it's actually more common than you'd think. A lot of Indonesians keep using their Indonesian passports, even after acquiring other citizenships. I know people who enter the country using their 'unexpired' Indonesian passports, but according to the law, the loss of Indonesian citizenship is automatic upon acquisition of another citizenship.

 

[Daniel50]

I am sure people have different circumstances. Thanks for the information. She could maintain status, with some documentation and apply for a PRTD to come back to Canada but one still needs to come back to Canada to renew their PR. Also, if one becomes a none resident for tax purposes this may create some issues when trying to get a PRTD, or to retain PR status. And long term if something should happen to me one can not maintain certain things eg. bank accts. etc., in Canada, without being PR or a citizen and if PR she would still need to meet residency requirements.

 

[Davita]

I heard it's actually more common than you'd think. A lot of Indonesians keep using their Indonesian passports, even after acquiring other citizenships. I know people who enter the country using their 'unexpired' Indonesian passports, but according to the law, the loss of Indonesian citizenship is automatic upon acquisition of another citizenship.

Atlantis has already written a lot on this subject but I'm not sure where it is.
The law, as written, seems to imply your above but, as Atlantis observed before, the actual revocation must be promulgated in an Immigration/Embassy office.
This was widely discussed when Minister Arcandra Tahar was caught with dual citizenship and, as long as he renounced his USA citizenship, he became an Indonesian again immediately without going thru' any process. The argument was his Indonesian citizenship was never revoked because he never reported his USA citizenship. He is now Deputy Minister of Energy.

http://www.todayonline.com/commentary/what-arcandra-tahar-affair-tells-us-about-indonesia

 

[IceNagas]

Atlantis has already written a lot on this subject but I'm not sure where it is.
The law, as written, seems to imply your above but, as Atlantis observed before, the actual revocation must be promulgated in an Immigration/Embassy office.
This was widely discussed when Minister Arcandra Tahar was caught with dual citizenship and, as long as he renounced his USA citizenship, he became an Indonesian again immediately without going thru' any process. The argument was his Indonesian citizenship was never revoked because he never reported his USA citizenship. He is now Deputy Minister of Energy.

http://www.todayonline.com/commentary/what-arcandra-tahar-affair-tells-us-about-indonesia

Yeah, I heard about this line of reasoning. I believe even Menkumham Yasonna Laoly also perpetuated this notion, that Tahar remains Indonesian until the loss of citizenship is made official. As much as I would like to believe that (and, believe me, I do), I simply cannot quite buy this. If it's revocation, then I can understand. But there is a difference between automatic loss of citizenship (which is stipulated in the law) and revocation of citizenship.

What happened was, they simply let Arcandra renounce his US citizenship, after which they simply reinstated his Indonesian citizenship. If they simply said that they, through their discretion, or due to national interest, they granted a stateless person, Arcandra Tahar, an Indonesian citizenship, then it may make sense (I believe there would be a provision somewhere that it is within the discretion of the government to grant citizenship for national interest reason, but I could be mistaken).

But the way it was handled, man, it's so confusing. Maybe it's not as black and white as I would expect it to be.

 

[Davita]

But the way it was handled, man, it's so confusing. Maybe it's not as black and white as I would expect it to be.

ex WNI.... IceNagas.....Welcome home....