Road Frustrations.

[rabbit_39]

What we in "our" societies agree as common courtesy may not translate into other cultures. I believe "adopt, adapt, improve" may be one answer or "when in Rome do what the Romans do"

Some things, sure. Bad behaviors? No. There is a line somewhere between allowing cannibalism practices and letting people do as they wish on public roads.

Now if the argument had been "let them create their own traffic and let the city have worse and worse reputation" then it would have been much more appropriate. It acknowledges the bad behaviors and it's consequences, and if that's what indonesians want then that's what they'll get.

 

[vocalneal]

Obliviously what you perceive as bad behavior, locals do not?

 

[rabbit_39]

Obliviously what you perceive as bad behavior, locals do not?

You'd be okay if the locals think cannibalism is not bad behavior? You'd let the practice continue? What if someone you know was hit by a motorcycle while walking on the sidewalks of Indonesia at night while the motorcycle rider was doing 80km/hour with no lights? That's what they're used to doing, and that would be okay right? Because the locals don't think it's bad behavior, even normal.

You tell me that you'd accept the scenario above as "oh that's how they do it here, that's the local customs to speed on their motorcycles at night with no lights riding on the sidewalks even if it caused the death of someone i know" and I'll drop the argument and let you have the point.

 

[steveandpenny]

Well you're the one who started it by saying "but if you tried that shit in the states good chance some one will pop a cap off in your azz."

So let me get this straight, because we are not in our home countries, we have to accept any and all bad behaviors done by our host country's citizens? I can understand it if we were in say, war torn countries with little to no law enforcement.

Or are you saying that Indonesian people should not be held to the same standards we would in "civilized" countries? That somehow "these indonesians" can't measure up to the standards of good behaviors that are basically simple common courtesy?

Come on man, with a mindset like yours, no progress will be done. But hey, I guess that's one way to feel superior and oppress the natives, eh?

Yeap that's what I'm saying ...It's Not my place to make things so called "better".
And it' neither your place or mine to decide for them what is better.

 

[rabbit_39]

Yeap that's what I'm saying ...It's Not my place to make things so called "better".
And it' neither your place or mine to decide for them what is better.

So you'd absolutely take the same stand after some person rides their motorcycle too fast at night without lights on the sidewalk hits and kills someone you know? Because you know, that's how things gets done here in Indonesia.

You tell me that you'd accept the scenario above as "oh that's how they do it here, that's the local customs to speed on their motorcycles at night with no lights riding on the sidewalks even if it caused the death of someone i know" and I'll drop the argument and let you have the point.

 

[rabbit_39]

Yeap that's what I'm saying ...It's Not my place to make things so called "better".
And it' neither your place or mine to decide for them what is better.

That means, if we're following the thread, you also think that " "these indonesians" can't measure up to the standards of good behaviors that are basically simple common courtesy?"

Wow.... not only is it condescending to think that Indonesians are less capable than others, it's also oppressive in a way that is not much different than the colonial times.

 

[Balifrog]

Rabbit, dont.expect the same rules or values in a developing country and in a 1st world country.
Besides that, I sure would.not like to drive in the US, to easy to get shot by a wannabee sheriff who thinks it is still the VN war...
And believe me, I have driven in a lot of "developping" places.. Nowadays, not interested, I just select a convenient area and use taxis.

 

[vocalneal]

You'd be okay if the locals think cannibalism is not bad behavior? You'd let the practice continue? What if someone you know was hit by a motorcycle while walking on the sidewalks of Indonesia at night while the motorcycle rider was doing 80km/hour with no lights? That's what they're used to doing, and that would be okay right? Because the locals don't think it's bad behavior, even normal.

You tell me that you'd accept the scenario above as "oh that's how they do it here, that's the local customs to speed on their motorcycles at night with no lights riding on the sidewalks even if it caused the death of someone i know" and I'll drop the argument and let you have the point.

I'd say accidents happen all the time. Was that person walking facing the traffic?

The world is a dangerous place, especially when one is outside of one's normal cultural mores.

 

[Smallworld]

...Was that person walking facing the traffic?
....

Hehehe ....you made my day.

 

[waarmstrong]

....Besides that, I sure would.not like to drive in the US, to easy to get shot by a wannabee sheriff who thinks it is still the VN war....

The easy availability of guns in America do result in some pretty horrendous examples of senseless violence. But such widely reported incidents are outliers, not representative of daily life. The Balifrog comment above is an ill informed sensationalization, essentially without basis in fact.

In the first place, only a small percentage of Americans actually carry guns, and almost all of the concealed carry proponents are responsible citizens. Keep in mind as well, that most Vietnam vets (now in their 60's and 70's) served honorably, returning home to an indifferent country unwilling to acknowledge their sacrifice. To suggest that their wartime experience turned them into a bunch of hotheads ready to gun down anyone who cuts them off in traffic is a groundless, mean-spirited fabrication.

 

[rabbit_39]

I'd say accidents happen all the time. Was that person walking facing the traffic?

The world is a dangerous place, especially when one is outside of one's normal cultural mores.

Does it matter when the person was on the sidewalk and the motorcycle was the one speeding in the dark on the sidewalk?

 

[rabbit_39]

Rabbit, dont.expect the same rules or values in a developing country and in a 1st world country.
Besides that, I sure would.not like to drive in the US, to easy to get shot by a wannabee sheriff who thinks it is still the VN war...
And believe me, I have driven in a lot of "developping" places.. Nowadays, not interested, I just select a convenient area and use taxis.

Again I have to take exception that we can't expect people in developing countries to be held to the same values as people in other countries. Why can't we? Just because they are citizens in a developing country it means they can do anything they wish? Does that mean they are less intelligent? Less capable?

Why can't we expect them to follow the rules that's already on the books? Indonesia is not a war torn country where the rule of law doesn't apply. It only happens because we allowed it. It only happens because we don't think indonesians should be held to the same standards as other human beings.

 

[Daniel50]

Again I have to take exception that we can't expect people in developing countries to be held to the same values as people in other countries.

Why can't we expect them to follow the rules that's already on the books?

It sounds like you could be in for a frustrating experience.


Yes, there are certainly a number of rules on the books which aren't followed.

 

[Balifrog]

Rabbit, as mentionned by Daniel you could be in for some funny (and less funny) experiences....
No they are not less intelligent, but surely less educated for most of them.

Maybe you should become a missionary ? Hahaha.... Remember rule nr 1, never take anything too seriously and always.keep on smiling. Pretty efficient for an happy retirement....

 

[vocalneal]

Does it matter when the person was on the sidewalk and the motorcycle was the one speeding in the dark on the sidewalk?

I think the walking on the sidewalk in the dark is dangerous. One might disappear down a large hole and never been seen again.

When walking one also has to use ones ears? Don't all kids know Stop, Look and Listen ?

We are taught to think and mostly to do the right thing, Asians are simply taught to do what they are told. So if there is no one around to tell them or to witness their actions...

 

[Puspawarna]

We are taught to think and mostly to do the right thing, Asians are simply taught to do what they are told. So if there is no one around to tell them or to witness their actions...

Ah, c'mon ... no one in their right mind would deny that the occasional sweeping generalization of "East vs. West" contains a tiny kernel of truth. But you're basically saying that Westerners are more morally upright than Asians. That's both offensive and not true. Plenty of people "do the right thing" or, unfortunately, the wrong thing, throughout the world.

 

[El_Goretto]

Ah, c'mon ... no one in their right mind would deny that the occasional sweeping generalization of "East vs. West" contains a tiny kernel of truth. But you're basically saying that Westerners are more morally upright than Asians. That's both offensive and not true. Plenty of people "do the right thing" or, unfortunately, the wrong thing, throughout the world.

Exactly, if westerners were really superior, we wouldn't need road rules or fines now would we?

I've always said it: the only reason there is chaos on the streets here is because there is no consistent enforcement.

It only takes one drive in so called "civilized" Paris during gridlock to see the exact same behaviors as in Indonesia.

I'll also note that most drivers in Indonesia are courteous and patient and I don't say this easily because I'm the worst road rager. But there is a small portion who do whatever they want and they create chaos. You can see this on the toll road during grid lock: the vast majority just stays patiently in their lane and only a few take the emergency lane.

 

[Anglian]

The bad driving is nothing to do with being indonesia, it’s todo with training, until recently there were no driving tests, I was quite horrified when I said to my wife she had to learn to drive, she went to a driving school, they drove her to the licence office got her full driving licence, she hadn’t a clue, a friend of mine volunteered to teach her, anyway I’m with her one day, she drives up the curb, I do my nut, her response, Well John doesn’t get angry,what else can you say, it’s only recently have driving test been implemented, most older drivers haven’t a clue on road discipline, it’s never been taught, and still not being done, police discipline is none existent, occasional purge to collect lunch money and that’s it, so it’s not really the Indonesians fault nobody has ever explained basic road safety, I know traffic macets are bad, but how many people do you know been done for speeding, the death rate of motor cyclist is quite high, but of little concern to the authorities, so till the authorities wake up, bad driving will contiue

 

[brian@bekasi]

Exactly, if westerners were really superior, we wouldn't need road rules or fines now would we?
I've always said it: the only reason there is chaos on the streets here is because there is no consistent enforcement.

Totally agree with this statement. There is virtually no road rule enforcement other than police pulling people up for driving in the emergency lane or police flapping their arms in the air creating chaos at intersections.
If there was consistent enforcement of the road rules, I believe some of the chaos would disappear but it would take a generation to change the culture of the police and the the people who are "allowed" to do what they want on the roads.
In Australia you drive in a controlled environment and you know the penalties if you break the road rules.Here the the rules are not enforced so people do as these please.
I don't drive here for that reason and my wife doesn't drive in Australia because she has never been taught to drive in controlled circumstances.