Dual Passport/Citizenship Borderless Travel etc

[Vulgarian]

Yes I admitted I have no understanding of this symbol, but that doesn't make me ignorant!

Not knowing something doesn't make you stupid. There's a ton of knowledge in this universe and no one could possibly be expected to know it all.

But you've literally given a dictionary definition of ignorance - of not knowing something.

It's not a bad thing. We're all ignorant of loads of things. One less now, perhaps.

 

[snpark]

Wikipedia Don't be lazy

 

[snpark]

Coat of arms of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[snpark]

Here in the Queen's English.

Crest
Upon the helm, the imperial crown proper thereon a lion statant guardant Or langued Gules armed Argent, imperially crowned Proper; mantled Or doubled Ermine
Blazon
Quarterly, I and IV Gules, three lions passant guardant in pale Or langued and armed Azure. II Or a lion rampant Gules armed and langued Azure within a double tressure flory-counter-flory Gules. III Azure a harp Or stringed Argent.; quarters for England and Scotland are exchanged in Scotland.
Supporters
On the dexter a lion rampant guardant Or langued and armed Gules, imperially crowned Proper. On the sinister a Unicorn rampant Argent armed crined and unguled Or, and gorged with a Coronet composed of crosses patee and fleurs-de-lis, a chain affixed thereto passing through the forelegs and reflexed over the back Or
Compartment
Tudor rose, Shamrock, and Thistle
Motto
French: Dieu et mon droit, lit. 'God and my right'

 

[snpark]

In American:
At the centre of the arms is a quartered shield, depicting the three passant guardant lions of England in the first and fourth quarters, the rampant lion and double tressure flory-counterflory of Scotland in the second quarter, and a harp for Ireland in the third quarter.[3][4] Surrounding the shield is the Order of the Garter, the United Kingdom's most senior order of knighthood.[4] The supporters are a crowned English lion on the dexter (heraldic right), and a chained Scottish unicorn on the sinister (heraldic left).[5] Above the shield is a gold helmet, which has mantling of gold and ermine attached to it. On top of this is the crest, a crown with a crowned lion standing on it. Below the shield is a grassy mound, a type of compartment, on which are thistles, Tudor roses and shamrocks, representing Scotland, England and Ireland respectively.[4] In front of this is the motto Dieu et mon droit, a French phrase meaning 'God and my right'.[4]

During the reign of Elizabeth II the crowns depicted in this version of the royal arms were close representations of St Edward's Crown. Charles III has decided to use the 'Tudor Crown', a design previously introduced at the start of the reign of Edward VII and used until 1952.[6]

 

[Balifrog]

And don't forget the other phrase "Honi soit qui mal y pense"

Honi soit qui mal y pense - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Shadrach]

Well I'm impressed you took the time to find all this information. Quite a lot going on there. Very formal! It doesn't explain why is the Unicorn chained! I guess it means Scotland has to be controlled! And Ireland wasn't forgotten, that's thoughtful. I don't think ill of the symbol either! I do have a problem with what happened to Scotland and Ireland though! Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't England conquer Scotland? All I can reference from are the movies Rob Roy and Braveheart! Is what they portray true? And wasn't there a big conflict with Ireland and separating the Northern six counties from the rest? This was over one being Catholic and the other being Protestant? So please excuse my knowledge or lack of on this subject. They don't teach this in American schools. In the schools there, they only teach the history of the Conquerer and who won in conflicts. For example we have no teachings about the genocide of the Native Americans, or about the cruelty of Slavery! The teachings there are all candy coated to make history look so wonderful!
The White invaders that came to America were portrayed as kind, loving, sharing Thanksgiving kind of people! As the motto says (God Bless America) The land of the Free and the Brave!

 

[Nuclear_fallout]

I fail to see any humor in this topic! It is a shame that we have to be this or that nationality. I would prefer to live where I want, when I want. When people travelled two hundred years ago, Did they have passports? I don't think so. Many great artist moved from their home countries and settled in foreign lands. Here Walter Spies, ( sorry for my spelling), Antonio Blanco, and Paul Gaugain in Tahiti, ( spelling again) Ernest Hemingway! So many more I can't name. I don't think they had to have time limits on living in foreign lands, with passports. Correct me if I'm wrong please! What I'm trying say is the world would been denied such masterpieces created by these geniuses if they had been restricted by borders and rules!
With populations growing so fast and so many troubles in the world, people are going to migrate and cannot be stop by borders and passports!
Is it possible to find a solution where there is enough for all? Everyone deserves basic Human rights to a home, food, clean water, a good life for them and their children without destroying this Planet and all the animals that were here before us! Time will tell!

Quite right. Scientists were also free to roam wherever they desired to do so. Things were better in the past. Technology is meant to bring us closer rather than further apart. Yet, you see... We are being more isolated than one another...

 

[Nuclear_fallout]

Quite right. Scientists were also free to roam wherever they desired to do so. Things were better in the past. Technology is meant to bring us closer rather than further apart. Yet, you see... We are being more isolated than one another...

I didn't comment on what shadrach criticized about snpark's remarks btw. I agreed with the rest of the sentence..

 

[jstar]

And here we go again…

Indonesia may offer dual citizenship to attract overseas workers, minister says - Society - The Jakarta Post

Indonesia does not recognize dual citizenship for adults, according to Indonesian law, as a child with two passports must choose one and renounce the other when they turn 18.

www.thejakartapost.com

 

[pantaiema]

And here we go again…

Indonesia may offer dual citizenship to attract overseas workers, minister says - Society - The Jakarta Post

Indonesia does not recognize dual citizenship for adults, according to Indonesian law, as a child with two passports must choose one and renounce the other when they turn 18.

www.thejakartapost.com

Additionally, foreign media outlets like Reuters also provide coverage of the news. Indonesia, and Indonesian people, taxpayers, in reality, stands to lose nothing from offering dual citizenship because

• Indonesia doesn't provide any social security benefits.
• For Indonesian people living close to bordering country such as Nunukan region, North Kalimantan having two nationalities will allow them to cross the country easily just with ID. It helps them finding the job, getting healthcare and education. In fact reasonable number of people living in this neighbouring country are covertly having dual nationalities (Have two ID cards)
• Compared to the vast Indonesian population, the figure is minuscule.
• The significant benefit is that it can foster stronger ties with the global Indonesian diaspora. It is highly likely that Indonesian Diaposras are more competitive than average Indonesian people who never do International travel.
• Dual nationality can encourage greater investment in Indonesia from overseas citizens, as well as facilitate knowledge and technology transfer.

The exact number of Indonesians holding two or more passports covertly remains unknown. However, there have been instances in the past where notable Indonesian politicians, ministers, businessmen held dual citizenship. None of them have faced legal consequences such as imprisonment or fines for holding dual citizenship. When their dual citizenship is discovered, all they need to do is renouncing either of their nationalities.

Permitting dual citizenship would facilitate the tracking of their assets in foreign countries and enable taxation on those assets.

 

[serious_fun]

Indonesian diaspora welcomes dual citizenship plan, but details needed to make it a reality

"A plan by the Indonesian government to offer dual citizenship to former citizens, to entice those with skills to return, has been given a big thumbs-up by the diaspora. But far more details are needed to make this a reality, analysts and officials say."

 

[pantaiema]

Indonesian diaspora welcomes dual citizenship plan, but details needed to make it a reality

"A plan by the Indonesian government to offer dual citizenship to former citizens, to entice those with skills to return, has been given a big thumbs-up by the diaspora. But far more details are needed to make this a reality, analysts and officials say."

The news/opinion has also been posted on the Jakarta Post. It came from one of the minister. But IMO to implement that, first the law about Indonesian citizenship must be changed. The minister even the president cannot just ask their staffs to implement that. For the law to be changed it must first be debated in the parliament and then approved by the parliament.

 

[snpark]

That's a lot of words to print when the answer is
"No"

 

[Banana72]

They'll probably end up mulling it over and maybe they'll do it in 2034....
What about the dual citizenship for under 18 has that even been formalized? They've been talking about that since 2011?

 

[Helpful Herbert]

View attachment 4014

The news/opinion has also been posted on the Jakarta Post. It came from one of the minister. But IMO to implement that, first the law about Indonesian citizenship must be changed. The minister even the president cannot just ask their staffs to implement that. For the law to be changed it must first be debated in the parliament and then approved by the parliament.

There is absolutely no way it will get through parliament in this decade (or probably the next either). Nothing has been drafted or proposed in any case. The best we can hope is something like the Indian system where they give something that is very close to citizenship.
This was just one guy giving his opinion, to try and impress some foreign visitors he had.

 

[pantaiema]

What about the dual citizenship for under 18 has that even been formalized? They've been talking about that since 2011?

Dual nationalities for children under 18 is already legalised in the law UU_No_12_2006 - Indonesian Citizenship
"Pasal 6
(1)Dalam hal status Kewarganegaraan Republik Indonesia terhadap anak sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 4 huruf c, huruf d, huruf h, huruf I, dan Pasal 5 berakibat anak berkewarganegaraan ganda, setelah berusia 18 (delapan belas) tahun atau sudah kawin anak tersebut harus menyatakan memilih salah satu kewarganegaraannya"

Article 6
(1) In the event that the Citizenship status of the Republic of Indonesia for a child as intended in Article 4 letters c, letter d, letter h, letter I, and Article 5 results in the child having dual citizenship, after the age of 18 (eighteen) years or is married the child must declared to choose one of his nationalities"

"Pasal 25
(4)Dalam hal status Kewarganegaraan Republik Indonesia terhadap anak sebagaimana dimaksud pada ayat (1), ayat (2), dan ayat (3) berakibat anak berkewarganegaraan ganda, setelah berusia 18 (delapan belas) tahun atau sudah kawin anak tersebut harus menyatakan memilih salah satu kewarganegaraannya sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 6."
Article 25
(4) In the event that the Citizenship status of the Republic of Indonesia for a child as intended in paragraph (1), paragraph (2), and paragraph (3) results in the child having dual citizenship, after the age of 18 (eighteen) years or is married the child must declare that they have chosen one of his nationalities as intended in Article 6."

 

[John indonesia]

I think we should explore the reasons why anyone would wish to have two passports.
I suppose ease of travel is the big one for most, but that comes with responsibilities.
Ukraine's dual citizens found that out to their cost.

 

[jstar]

Obviously for refugees dual citizenship could be a welcome solution.

All country specific; Greek. Moroccan and Iranian citizens, for example, cannot even renounce their citizenship: it is not (legally) possible.

And sometimes you automatically lose your original citizenship on acquiring another one, for instance in Suriname and China,

 

[Banana72]

I am personally ok with having one passport at this point (especially it's easier to apply for some visas with my current one). Only downside to that is getting a snide remark occasionally from the immigration during KITAP renewal/MERP extension. Other than that, pretty happy with it!