Suicides

[Daniel50]

What is happening.....recently dead at 61 possible suicide Chef Anthony Bordain age 61 found in France. Sister to the Qeen of Netherlands Innes Zorreguieta commits suicide age 33., fashion icon Kate Spade age 55 commits suicide. I know this is not specific to Indonesia but I am sure happens in Indonesia also, regardless of money , no money, status, little status. Outwardly appearing happy etc etc...?

 

[Anglian]

Some poor chap hung himself from a lamppost in Jakarta the other day, quite sad really, being rich or poor doesn’t seem to prevent suicides, Kate Spade a wealthy hand bag designer committed suicide in New York, it seems money doesn’t buy happiness either

 

[jstar]

I know this is not specific to Indonesia but I am sure happens in Indonesia also

Place 172 ?!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
.

 

[snpark]

How do you report suicide or attempted suicide - therefore such lists are pointless
Many cultures (Middle East I think) don't even recognise suicide. Japan also?
Suicide by drowning? Overdose? Just missing etc
No way to report accurate facts

 

[jstar]

I don't think you should throw away the baby with the bath water. Of course there are some questionable sources and guesstimates. But the WHO is rather professional in their research approach...

http://www.who.int/healthinfo/global_burden_disease/GlobalCOD_method_2000_2015.pdf?ua=1

 

[Daniel50]

Some poor chap hung himself from a lamppost in Jakarta the other day, quite sad really, being rich or poor doesn’t seem to prevent suicides, Kate Spade a wealthy hand bag designer committed suicide in New York, it seems money doesn’t buy happiness either

No money won't buy happiness and not all rich people are doing better then anyone else. They have the same human struggles as everyone else. I am sure there are a lot of reasons why people commit suicide but I find it tragic/sad. Generally, people just want whatever mental/emotional pain to stop. Some people struggle with whatever issues for years before taking there own life.

 

[vocalneal]

I am sure there are a lot of reasons why people commit suicide but I find it tragic/sad.

I don't find it tragic or sad.

No parent should outlive their children. So for family members or parents it is sad or tragic. Especially if there was something they think they could have done.

However, if an individual has reached , say, 75 and for whatever reason has run out of money, doesn't want to be a burden on anyone and is willing to take responsibility for the fact they ran out of the means to maintain their life. Why should they not be free to rationally end it ?

Even if that is not the case why are individuals not free to end their own lives ? It is their life, after all.

I understand society's stand against suicide because the individual could rack up debts and then end their responsibility but I don't understand the humanitarian concern. At an individual level it is fear of the unknown?

I suppose I could understand the "Pride comes before a fall" aspect. But in the case of my hypothetical 75 year old above any help would be temporary.

Daniel. How would you like everyone's life to end? What would make death not sad or tragic for you? Car/Motorbike crash? Buried by a volcano? Ferry capsized? Aircraft crash? I don't see suicide as any different.

 

[Daniel50]

Some of what I find tragic/sad, without exploring all the internal aspects and trying to uncover every ethical variation/circumstance, is the general effects it has on survivors eg. 2 of the first stated cases above have children......guaranteed it will have some effects on them and some other family members.

Of course some societies have moved to assisted suicide for certain irreversible conditions where death is the inevitable outcome anyways. I am sure different countries, and courts, have different laws and ongoing interpretations to give a person this right. I have not thought through many of these considerations and what my personal views are but it seems tragic to me when I think of some family members and also when I think of some of the prolonged suffering, at times loneliness and isolation that may precede some suicides. I believe in a certain meaning to all lives here however one may define that. Others have different beliefs around the same issues of life and death.

 

[R Cameron]

I don't find it tragic or sad.

I think there is a lot of logic in your view, but unfortunately (it seems to me) most suicides are not carried out logically by the person. Rather, they are suffering from depression or other mental illness and do not think through all the implications of their actions. Often suicide is done very selfishly, with no rational consideration as to the affect on loved ones. A suicidal person will often think "they will be better off without me" but not take any rational steps to help the loved ones understand their decision and process it in a healthy way. I have had two friends commit suicide, one at about 20 years old and one at about 35 years old. Their lives seemed mostly great to all observers, even those quite close to them, and even years later their families are heartbroken and still completely confused.

 

[Anglian]

I don’t know if it was true, but I was told by a friend in Jeddah to be wary of pedestrians standing in the centre resivation on a dual carriage way as they might step out in front of you to commit suicide, under Saudia law you would be responsible so you would have to pay the deceased relatives money, so now they aren’t poor anymore

 

[vocalneal]

and do not think through all the implications of their actions. Often suicide is done very selfishly, with no rational consideration as to the affect on loved ones.

Whilst I accept that humans are an emotional species, does this mean that unhappy people should soldier on simply to make relatives happy. I think the most common response from relatives and loved ones is that they had no idea the victim was unhappy. Or they are searching for something they could have done even thought they probably should have done it sooner.
If suicide itself is selfish then the opposite is also true?

If we accept that we all must leave eventually maybe society could do a better job of education about death. We are all told to be successful and prepare for old age where there is a whole load of industries ready to separate us from our money. Maybe suicide is giving the ultimate finger to such industries? Allowing in some cases the survivors to benefit from it, not others.

It is only complex because we are emotional?

 

[R Cameron]

Whilst I accept that humans are an emotional species, does this mean that unhappy people should soldier on simply to make relatives happy.

The next thing I wrote after what you quoted addresses that:

A suicidal person will often think "they will be better off without me" but not take any rational steps to help the loved ones understand their decision and process it in a healthy way.

I think it's very selfish (and a sign of irrationality) for a person to commit suicide without explaining and saying goodbye to close friends and family, usually in the form of a letter left behind. The two people I know who have killed themselves didn't leave any sort of note, and it has made it very difficult for their families to understand, process, and move on.

 

[Bad_azz]

...

Of course some societies have moved to assisted suicide for certain irreversible conditions where death is the inevitable outcome anyways. ....

Death is the inevitable outcome for all of us... it is what we choose to do with our time prior to death that is important, I'm not surprised that people caught up in the world of celebrity have mental health issues.
It is a fake and shallow world at the best of times, and those seeking the limelight tend to be needy individuals.
Needy individuals tend to measure their own worth in the eyes of others.
Not all in the public eye sought fame & fortune & for those people the pressure of "celebrity" can also be too much to deal with/no escape from.

However, I think that the vast majority of suicides are about relationships rather than money
AND not necessarily the relationship others know them to be in.

A very dear friend of mine was "happily" married but had been having a very passionate love affair on the side, and then when she was ready to leave home, the "lover' flaked and ditched her.
Hubby was clueless, but ended up on suicide watch with her & their kids for a long time, all medicines were locked away as she tried a couple of overdoses.
In the end she found a different escape & used her car to end her life.
Her family were almost destroyed by this- and I was in the middle with some of the answers- but what the hell could I say- "ahh she couldn't cope with losing the love of her life & he wasn't you?"

Another friend took his life when his wife left him- he had been abusive and controlling for years, she left- he also used the car to snuff himself... however for those of us who had regularly seen her battered face, we didn't exactly mourn him- BUT he obviously had some serious mental health issues.
(I actually have another 5 suicide related stories, maybe it isn't good for people's health to be my friend, or perhaps suicide is a much bigger part of our lives than we actually consider it to be?)

The fact that some people choose to take their own lives, is sad/tragic for those who are left picking up the pieces and trying to make sense of it or for those who are in abusive situations prior to the suicide that they see as their only escape.

I read somewhere in t'internet something saying something along the lines of: suicide is not an end to pain and depression , it just transfers it to someone else.

That is on the money in my opinion.

[edit]... I stayed with a guy for several years beyond the expiration date of our relationship, because when I left him, he ended up in hospital having overdosed... I went back- because I am a kind hearted being and misguidedly thought that I could "keep him happy & alive" and the pressure from external forces was pretty intimidating too:
"how could you leave him & let this happen. We like him, he is a nice bloke." kinda shit- FROM MY OWN FAMILY! This actually affected my mental health in a pretty nasty way too, I won't say I considered suicide- I didn't, but I definitely dissociated for quite some time. When I did eventually & finally leave, he died - and the first thing we all thought was : suicide. It wasn't.

So guys I am very firmly in the anti- using threats of suicide as emotional blackmail camp- and anyone who tries that one on me just gets : "get on with it then & leave me alone"

 

[snpark]

I don’t know if it was true, but I was told by a friend in Jeddah to be wary of pedestrians standing in the centre resivation on a dual carriage way as they might step out in front of you to commit suicide, under Saudia law you would be responsible so you would have to pay the deceased relatives money, so now they aren’t poor anymore

Regular occurance in Dubai too, construction workers jumping off flyovers onto traffic below so they get hit by car, die, and the insurance has to pay the 200,000dhs (about $50,000) blood money

They did change the law so suicide was not included but "accidents" happen when Bangladeshi decides to play chicken across 8 lanes of 160kmh traffic
A Nissan Patrol doing 160kmh doesn't leave much of a body to ship home

 

[Daniel50]

I have heard that many times......"what is it to them, it's my life and I can do what I want with it"....... meawhile they are doing things to create chaos for those around them but failing to see that. Our lives are interconnected for better or worse. Hopefully for the better. And this form of self centeredness fails to recognize or accept that fact. Our lives have effects on others, especially those closest to us.

 

[Jamu]

Suicide will really bugger up the afterlife process, so it's to be avoided at all costs.

 

[jstar]

^
I know it's easy to blame (the pressure in) their societies, but obviously that could also be a possible explanation of the high(er) rates in Korea and Japan; the absence or smallness of religions that comdemn it/you.

 

[Daniel50]

Adding addictions, or substances, on top of whatever life or mental/emotional struggles will also increase the chances of suicide.

 

[Felicity]

I would say money can buy happiness. Positive psychology has some researches about it. Money is a tool, in this material world combines with a material tool, why can't it be synergistic? Maybe there's something not right in how people use it.

 

[Daniel50]

I heard a comedian say........"I tell you what won't buy happiness, poverty.....poverty won't buy happiness". I have nothing against money, there is nothing inherently wrong with money whether little or lots. Money will pay for more distractions, people tend to treat you differently, you can maintain appearances. You can pay for whatever treatments, top lawyers etc..There are plenty of people without money who struggle as well. But there are also many people with money who struggle with some of the same human ailments as anyone else......depression, addictions etc. etc. etc..