Sadistic Celebrity Nun Sainted.

[Puspawarna]

C'mon Puspa, TH has never said that.

Well, he did concede that there might be the occasional good one out there. But his characterisation is pretty harsh. I made the point that there is a clear distinction between MT charities and most development work, and he countered with the assertion that development consists primarily of halfwits, obscene gravy trains, rottenness, flagrant mark-ups, double book-keeping, and third-party contractors grossly overpaid to cock things up - all his words, not mine. If those bolded words are not hallmarks of corrupt behavior, I don't know what is.

Moreover, it appears that he doesn't think there is a significant distinction between development work and MT's charities. If he does see a difference, why bother with the rant?

 

[William King]

and he countered with the assertion that development consists primarily of

Meaning many, but not all. I'd say it's a pretty fair comment, tbh.

 

[Puspawarna]

Meaning many, but not all. I'd say it's a pretty fair comment, tbh.

Agree. I overstated things a bit. I'd edit my post to reflect that, but then the resulting conversation would be bizarre. Setting my overstatement aside, though, I stand by the rest of what I said.

 

[William King]

And fair enough too.

 

[Davita]

Tupai Hitam has indicated he has direct knowledge, and been personally involved, of how some development projects are 'financed'.....and gave evidence of a local project gone bad.

Puspawarna's counter doesn't indicate anything other than opinion....there's a difference.

 

[El_Goretto]

Tupai Hitam has indicated he has direct knowledge, and been personally involved, of how some development projects are 'financed'.....and gave evidence of a local project gone bad.

Puspawarna's counter doesn't indicate anything other than opinion....there's a difference.

And your comment is an opinion that puspawarna does not have any experience working in development projects, how would you know?

To balance things out and so not to appear as if I'm blindly backing my fellow moderator (also note that I am posting this as a user, not a mod), the way I read it is that TH did not mean that all development projects are completely corrupt.

Some are, some are not but I'm almost sure that all of them could somehow be improved because nothing is perfect.

If I'm not mistaken, big names such as Peace Corp, The Red Cross are plagued by scandals of mis-use of funds due to nefarious motivation or poor organization or both.

And also, we must not discount the fact that nothing is black and white. Some development projects cannot move forward at all without some form of corruption with the local governments. Which is better? No development project at all or *some* development project with a bit of corruption?

 

[Davita]

Edit: I've deleted because the original post I was responding to vanished. Therefore this deleted response made no sense.

 

[Puspawarna]

Tupai Hitam has indicated he has direct knowledge, and been personally involved, of how some development projects are 'financed'.....and gave evidence of a local project gone bad.

Puspawarna's counter doesn't indicate anything other than opinion....there's a difference.

Geez, Davita, I don't think a resume is required to express an opinion on a topic that any tax-paying citizen might wish to educate themselves on.

But as it happens, I've been working in development projects for years and have seen many successful projects. Here's one of many: from 2007 to 2009, I worked for a USAID project that fostered the competitiveness of Indonesia's garment, furniture, handicraft, autoparts, and shoe industries. We worked directly with small businesses to help them understand how value chains operate, what credentials they need to compete internationally, and how to market themselves.

Did we change the world? No, of course not. But:

• We helped a number of furniture producers to achieve the international certifications they need (regarding sustainability of the wood used) to export to the EU.
• We worked with local companies to develop a fabric-sourcing handbook (which giant international buyers such as Walmart requested copies of) to make it faster and easier to source materials from Indonesian suppliers - which may sound boring and unimportant, but such things lead to more business and more jobs for ordinary Indonesians
• We supported revisions to tariffs at Lini 2 Port of Tanjung Priok, where overlapping fees were charged by port service providers. Implementation of these revisions made it easier for exporters - again, the ultimate benefit being jobs for Indonesians.

That's a tiny sample - a complete list would consist of several pages of bullet points like the above.

At my last place of employment, we helped local governments to work more effectively with their PDAMs, assisted several financially unhealthy PDAMs to achieve healthy status, and funded over a quarter of a million piped water connections to low-income Indonesians.

I could go on, but I hope you understand that my support of development work is based on knowledge. Not that one needs to be a practitioner to have a well-informed opinion. Methods such as reading newspapers and books also work.

 

[Puspawarna]

Re: post #26.

I don't recall asking a question ref. post #26...and I don't see why the poster thinks I wear knickers.....as a matter of fact I wear colorful man-pants which I buy from Costco in multi-packets.

I know nothing of the subject but just wanted to show the difference in the quality of conversation....seeing as it was becoming heated.

If you want to tell your life-story that's your prerogative....but I now respect it certainly gives more credence to your opinion.

Your debate is with TH...not me...you don't need my permission.

Edit: What happened to the post # 26 to which I'm responding? It has been changed.

Apologies for the confusion - I realized after laboriously writing it out that it wasn't really an answer (what matters is not my experience, but the results I've seen produced), so I completely rewrote it. Meanwhile, others posted.

Incidentally, before I made the changes I saw that you had gone off line without posting, so I didn't expect an answer before I re-composed my post. But you came back on before I had written what I think is a better answer.

 

[Puspawarna]

And also, we must not discount the fact that nothing is black and white. Some development projects cannot move forward at all without some form of corruption with the local governments. Which is better? No development project at all or *some* development project with a bit of corruption?

This is probably the most nuanced and the most useful observation in this thread. While none of the projects I've worked on would ever tolerate outright corruption, there certainly have been funds wasted, and we KNEW they were wasted - but we had no choice because we needed to maintain good relationships with government counterparts in order to get worthwhile tasks completed.

 

[Davita]

Apologies for the confusion - I realized after laboriously writing it out that it wasn't really an answer (what matters is not my experience, but the results I've seen produced), so I completely rewrote it. Meanwhile, others posted.

Incidentally, before I made the changes I saw that you had gone off line without posting, so I didn't expect an answer before I re-composed my post. But you came back on before I had written what I think is a better answer.

Apology accepted...when I saw the post I was replying to disappear I just wondered if I'd been hypnotized...sorry, that's another thread...

 

[waarmstrong]

We have such a nice group of people here.

 

[Davita]

And your comment is an opinion that puspawarna does not have any experience working in development projects, how would you know?

Of course I don't know what her experience is on the subject...how would I. Now she has declared....it is obviously a credible opinion. Could have been avoided if she had said something about her expertise in the first place.....as TH did.

 

[Bad_azz]

NGOs- we just need to look at the salaries they pay out and the expenses claims and the places their employees stay to see where the hard begged for cash goes.
There are enough stories out there.
I for one avoid them at all costs - if I want to do something to help a cause I give direct or physically assist- not saying all of them but by the very nature of the huge corporate beasts they are; the cash cow's milk has to go into the bureaucracy that works them instead of where it is needed.

 

[Davita]

NGOs- we just need to look at the salaries they pay out and the expenses claims and the places their employees stay to see where the hard begged for cash goes.
There are enough stories out there.
I for one avoid them at all costs - if I want to do something to help a cause I give direct or physically assist- not saying all of them but by the very nature of the huge corporate beasts they are; the cash cow's milk has to go into the bureaucracy that works them instead of where it is needed.

Ooooh! I'll bet that stings......but I also know some who work for those organisations and was also surprised at their generous life-style considering their job titles and what they actually do.

 

[Puspawarna]

I for one avoid them at all costs - if I want to do something to help a cause I give direct or physically assist- not saying all of them but by the very nature of the huge corporate beasts they are; the cash cow's milk has to go into the bureaucracy that works them instead of where it is needed.

But you can't effect structural changes by donating a bit of cash or food to a needy person. What if the entire school system needs to be overhauled - with new buildings, better teacher training, updated curricula, etc.? What if the entire corps of civil servants working on road engineering needs to be professionalized? What if the laws related to food and drug safety need to be revised?

Those are major undertakings of the sort that are essential to bringing the infrastructure of developing countries up to best practice standards. Individual donations aren't going to do a thing to address the underlying causes of poverty, public health problems, poor roads, and the like. Only institutions can address such problems.

 

[ukcouple]

.. But you can't effect structural changes by donating a bit of cash or food to a needy person.

There have been loads of instances in the UK where donors money has been used by charities for POLITICAL purposes, not for the purposes stated in their prospectuses.

Add to that the massive overheads on administration, expenses and salaries and sometimes there is not much left to help the needy.

OXFAM and the RSPCA come to mind but there are others. It is small wonder that many people have become disillusioned and want to donate directly to those in need.

 

[Puspawarna]

There have been loads of instances in the UK where donors money has been used by charities for POLITICAL purposes, not for the purposes stated in their prospectuses.

Add to that the massive overheads on administration, expenses and salaries and sometimes there is not much left to help the needy.

OXFAM and the RSPCA come to mind but there are others. It is small wonder that many people have become disillusioned and want to donate directly to those in need.

As I understand it, the UK has had some particularly bad scandals in recent years, so that may legitimately influence your viewpoint.

However, while NGOs like OxFam do play some role in development work, they are not the organizations I'm thinking of when I say that expenditures are accountable, or that only institutions can attack structural problems like the need for legal reform. I'm mostly talking about G2G (government to government) programs, which are a different animal. (TP can speak for himself, but I think he is also focused on G2G).

Not that all NGOs are corrupt - I do not know enough to say, but I think places like Save The Children and Mercy Corp have good reputations.

Anyway, your point is relevant, but hardly an answer: I've pointed out that individual donations are no substitute for broad-based attacks on the causes of poverty, public health crises, crumbling transport infrastructure, and the like. If you think Oxfam is corrupt, fine. What do you propose we do to assist countries to join first-world nations in prosperity and opportunity for citizens? Nothing?

 

[ukcouple]

...What do you propose we do to assist countries to join first-world nations in prosperity and opportunity for citizens? Nothing?

About 8 billion pounds a year of UK tax payers money is spent on foreign aid, (that's more than the Brits spend on the armed forces).

That's a lot of money that I assume is being used to help the poor and needy overseas as well as on major infrastructure projects such as roads, schools, hospitals, water treatment projects etc.

That's as it should be.

But with all that money being available from the British Government to help overseas, I have to wonder what the purpose of British Charities is.

In the UK itself, a much more efficient use of cash is to give directly to your local hospice or orphanage or whatever.

 

[Puspawarna]

About 8 billion pounds a year of UK tax payers money is spent on foreign aid, (that's more than the Brits spend on the armed forces).

That's a lot of money that I assume is being used to help the poor and needy overseas as well as on major infrastructure projects such as roads, schools, hospitals, water treatment projects etc.

That's as it should be.

But with all that money being available from the British Government to help overseas, I have to wonder what the purpose of British Charities is.

In the UK itself, a much more efficient use of cash is to give directly to your local hospice or orphanage or whatever.

Okay. So, governments can provide aid, but we should do away with NGOs like Oxfam. So far so good. Let's proceed tot he next step: Who figures out how the aid is spent? Does Britain just say to Indonesia, 'Here, have a large wad of cash with no strings/oversight attached - we hope you'll spend it on good stuff to improve the country!!" Or do the funds get channeled through accountable, expert institutions that work hand-in-hand with Indonesian partners to figure out the best use of the funds?