Executions

[Davita]

Gratilla touched on an interesting subject on another thread....about executions.
There seems to me two aspects to this...
1. Do executions actually achieve any objective and what would those objectives be.
2. What form of execution is the most humane.

I'll leave # 1 on its own as I'm against all forms of executions because I cannot see their purpose.
Re: # 2. I wish we had some feedback to justify any of our opinions but, so far, the dead do not return to tell us...except for that pimple-faced guy on E TV that helps people sort out their anxieties by communicating with their dead relatives...

I'm persuaded that a pill or injection is the preferred route by those who wish to self-execute (Euthanasia). All that I've read is they take a sedative to make them drowsy then a poison to end it all.
Suicide also comes to mind but I'm convinced that those who commit suicide are mentally unstable and therefore cannot rationalize.

 

[Daniel50]

1. Yea, they actually achieve their objective ......to kill the person ......so that he/she is dead.

2. I don't know but going without food while be subjected to continual playing of Sony and Cher albums seems like it could be one of the most inhumane.

 

[Gratilla]

My point about US executions (ie electric chair, lethal injection, gas chamber, etc) is that they are all hypocritically "cruel and unusual", in that they have:

1) A long anticipation run up which is probably psychologically debilitating.
2) A long delay between initiation of the execution method and the result.
3) A history of botched efforts.
The Chinese "ultimate solution" (ie a bullet in the back of the head, preferably when the victim is not expecting it) is both immediate and fast.

The history of the electric chair (ie a rivalry between Edison's direct current and Tesla's alternating current) is hilariously gory. And then there's the case of the lethal injection execution of a few years back that was indefinitely postponed because one of the chemicals had passed it's expiration date? WTF!

 

[harryopal1]

Execution and brutally harsh punishment of felons was seen by the English superior classes as a means of controlling wealth and privilege and keeping the undeserving poor in their place. Similar principles applied with controlling the colonies. The infamous colony at Norfolk Island, off the east coast of Australia, was renowned for its brutality and was seen as a means of making would be criminals think again. And then a Scot named Andrew Maconochie became governor in 1840 and turned the system on its head by releasing people from chains and establishing a humanitarian system that showed that extreme punishment was not necessary to maintain order. Maconochie, his wife and children were able to walk amongst the felons in safety. However it was seen by Maconochie's betters that this humanitarian approach was misguided and removed the deterrent value of the previous system. Maconochie was removed in 1843 and the system returned to its traditional manner of brutal punishments.

Despite the historic proof that capital punishment and systematic brutality do not really result in less crime it is usual for the victims of crime and those who feel threatened to return to the "lock 'em up throw away the keys" and "hanging is too good" for them notions of law and order.

Processes of rehabilitation and humane penal living conditions costs money and that is usually enough for most governments to accept the status quo. As societies move more and more towards massive unemployment there is no doubt that crime will increase exponentially so I imagine that the clamour to return to the good old days of executions and brutal treatment will gradually gain more favour. .

 

[Anglian]

Well there has been 70 murders in London this year so far and it would seem it’s going to continue, the Old Bill seem to be somewhat under strength, nobody seems particularly bothered, so if any villains were caught should they be hanged, phew, that would be an awful lot of hangings, including other parts of the country,
I don’t really thing Hanging would help, but long term jailing doesn’t seem to be a deterrent either, you could use them for medical experiments, or work camps, but that sounds like the Nazis or communists, so anybody got any better ideas, rather than leaving them in jail at enormous expense to the tax payer

 

[Balifrog]

Hanging is cheaper for the honest community than life time jail.
Execution.should be done within 30d of judgement
Yes, I know, in case of error there is no wind back...

Guillotine is basic, fast, painless and efficient.

 

[Puspawarna]

I don't believe in capital punishment, but if it is going to be done, it ought to be more humanely performed. It seems like the simplest method would be an overdose of sleeping pills, or something similar. Of course, you'd have to force someone to swallow, so that wouldn't be pretty. I don't know what the answer is.

 

[harryopal1]

[QUOTE="Guillotine is basic, fast, painless and efficient.[/QUOTE]

You can vouch for this based on personal experience? From what I understand the brain is still alive for some minutes after decapitation and that might suggest pain. To be certain we need the next person to be decapitated in France to agree to "blink twice if you feel pain". All capital punishment is rather gruesome and I suspect as a society we pay a price. But then keeping someone in gaol for life is rather costly. I think its up to teachers in school to tell children, "Please don't do bad things during your life." These days teachers are expected to teach about everything else so may as well throw that into the mix,

 

[Anglian]

Phew, did anyone see on Sky News the black chap attack a driver with a very, very large zombie knife, the man totally lost it, I certainly wouldn’t want to be an unarmed policeman roaming the London streets, if this happened in the U.S. I’m sure he would be shot dead on site with that huge blade

 

[steveandpenny]

Well there has been 70 murders in London this year so far and it would seem it’s going to continue, the Old Bill seem to be somewhat under strength, nobody seems particularly bothered, so if any villains were caught should they be hanged, phew, that would be an awful lot of hangings, including other parts of the country,
I don’t really thing Hanging would help, but long term jailing doesn’t seem to be a deterrent either, you could use them for medical experiments, or work camps, but that sounds like the Nazis or communists, so anybody got any better ideas, rather than leaving them in jail at enormous expense to the tax payer

It's quite common to use prisoners for work or medical experiments in the states. Inside the prisons there is always work that the prisoners get paid pennies on the dollar. From making furniture, phone solicitors, making of cloths and so on and so forth. They can also work in forsert fire crews or road clean up.
The medical test are that the drug companies get prisoners to test new drugs in exchange of time off the sentence.
As far as a death penalty I don't understand why they don't do it the same way as they do for assisted suicide which is legal in a few states. It comprised of first being sedative then using a gas such as helium or carbon monoxide. It's the production of carbon dioxide in high levels that send a signal to you mind and body that you are suffocating. With any gas that has no oxygen in it you don't produce carbon dioxide and you slip away from oxygen depervation with out you being aware of it.

 

[Davita]

It's quite common to use prisoners for work or medical experiments in the states. Inside the prisons there is always work that the prisoners get paid pennies on the dollar. From making furniture, phone solicitors, making of cloths and so on and so forth. They can also work in forsert fire crews or road clean up.
The medical test are that the drug companies get prisoners to test new drugs in exchange of time off the sentence.
As far as a death penalty I don't understand why they don't do it the same way as they do for assisted suicide which is legal in a few states. It comprised of first being sedative then using a gas such as helium or carbon monoxide. It's the production of carbon dioxide in high levels that send a signal to you mind and body that you are suffocating. With any gas that has no oxygen in it you don't produce carbon dioxide and you slip away from oxygen depervation with out you being aware of it.

I agree with the highlight above...if it is legal, agreeable and acceptable in those states and countries that offer assisted euthanasia then I don't see why executions, if mandated, could not be carried out in the same manner.

 

[Asun]

As recently as a couple centuries ago, executions were done for the entertainment value with some religious underpinnings.
For those who are interested in the gory details of capital punishment throughout the ages, here's an excellent podcast:
https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-61-blitz-painfotainment/
Everything else from Dan Carlin are greatly recommended as well.

 

[vocalneal]

Suicide also comes to mind but I'm convinced that those who commit suicide are mentally unstable and therefore cannot rationalize.

Suicide is often considered to be a weakness however I believe that some suicides are the result of a carefully thought out plan with both causes and consequences considered. There is a certain amount of cold considered bravery involved.
Have terminal cancer? What do you wan to do ? Die when you want to on a nice sunny day or wait until you are in a bare hospital room with uncontrolled liquids leaking out of all orifices. OK maybe life insurance dictates the latter but...

A long anticipation run up which is probably psychologically debilitating.

If the death penalty is the ultimate punishment and a deterrent. If the method is well Ok you can brutally murder someone and your punishment will be taking and Aspirin and then sitting in a chair and falling asleep. Well that isn't much of a deterrent.
Execution are or were public for the deterrent value. If we want quick then tying a guy to the barrel of a cannon works.
There is no smoke without fire so criminals who get to the point of execution don't get there for not paying a parking ticket.

If we consider that we live in a civilized society then individuals who do not wish to follow the laws laid down to keep it civilized forfeit their right to be part of that society.

 

[Fred]

Drug dealers kill by the hundreds but they never re-offend after they're executed.
Same for terrorists.

It appears to work quite well but, if someone can link to a story about a member of either group that returned to their evil ways after they snuffed it, I'd be happy to concede I'm in error.

 

[Davita]

Suicide is often considered to be a weakness however I believe that some suicides are the result of a carefully thought out plan with both causes and consequences considered. There is a certain amount of cold considered bravery involved.
Have terminal cancer? What do you wan to do ? Die when you want to on a nice sunny day or wait until you are in a bare hospital room with uncontrolled liquids leaking out of all orifices. OK maybe life insurance dictates the latter but...

I think you've confused suicide with euthanasia when you quoted my post # 1 where I tried to define the difference.

From Wiki....
Suicide is the act of intentionally causing one's own death. Risk factors include mental disorders such as depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, personality disorders, and substance abuse — including alcoholism and the use of benzodiazepines. Other suicides are impulsive acts due to stress such as from financial difficulties, troubles with relationships, or bullying.

Euthanasia is the practice of intentionally ending a life to relieve pain and suffering.
Euthanasia is categorized in different ways, which include voluntary, non-voluntary, or involuntary. Voluntary euthanasia is legal in some countries. Non-voluntary euthanasia (patient's consent unavailable) is illegal in all countries. Involuntary euthanasia (without asking consent or against the patient's will) is also illegal in all countries and is usually considered murder.

 

[Gratilla]

If we consider that we live in a civilized society then individuals who do not wish to follow the laws laid down to keep it civilized forfeit their right to be part of that society.

Agreed. Revenge and explicit deterrence don't need to be part of the equation. Suffice it they should expect to be "disappeared" and not a 30-year hotel guest (at our expense) with three meals a day and regular colonics!

 

[Puspawarna]

Drug dealers kill by the hundreds but they never re-offend after they're executed.
Same for terrorists.

That's an exceedingly common argument. Historically it usually goes like this:

Pro-death penalty person: Execute people! It's a deterrent.
Anti: Here is the evidence that shows it is not a deterrent.
Pro: Well, it deters at least ONE person!

The logical flaw in that comeback is that life imprisonment is an equally effective deterrent for one person. If there is objective evidence that other criminals are not deterred, then the argument for capital punishment v. life imprisonment needs to shift to other considerations, such as whether you want the death penalty purely as retribution, whether it is cheaper and you are willing to make those life or death decisions based on cost, and whether the "life" imprisonment will turn out to be 20 years followed by parole. All three of those considerations are subject to ethical and/or practical, evidence-based discussion.

As for me, the only perpetrators I could possibly feel ethically comfortable executing are exactly the ones we need to keep around to try to figure out what the hell their psychology is: that would be sickening serial killers/torturers, etc. - the worst of the worst. Oh, and in America these days, random mass shooters. But that last group almost always manages to get offed by police or themselves during the commission of their crime.

 

[Davita]

I agree with Puspa that there is very little evidence that execution has been any kind of deterrent.

Since the Roman days of throwing people to be devoured by wild animals; decapitating and showing the heads of martyrs on London bridge; Guillotining in public squares in Paris; stoning to death by the public in Muslim countries; keel-hauling pirates in the Caribbean....... none seems to deter criminal activity.

Maybe there's another reason the public like to see people being mauled almost to death and maybe explains why cage-wrestling has such a following.

 

[vocalneal]

I think you've confused suicide with euthanasia when you quoted my post # 1 where I tried to define the difference.

Not at all.

Suicide is "the action of killing oneself intentionally". Motives and causes are irrelevant

Origin
Mid 17th century: from modern Latin suicidium ‘act of suicide’, suicida ‘person who commits suicide’, from Latin sui ‘of oneself’ + caedere ‘kill’.

Euthanasia is "the painless killing of a patient suffering from an incurable and painful disease or in an irreversible coma". So is assisted and not done solely by the individual
.

Origin
Early 17th century (in the sense ‘easy death’): from Greek, from eu ‘well’ + thanatos ‘death’.

NB. There are not enough hours in the day to keep Wikipedia honest!

 

[Davita]

Not at all.

Suicide is "the action of killing oneself intentionally". Motives and causes are irrelevant





Euthanasia is "the painless killing of a patient suffering from an incurable and painful disease or in an irreversible coma". So is assisted and not done solely by the individual
.



NB. There are not enough hours in the day to keep Wikipedia honest!

Tomaitoes: TomAtoes.

You have now agreed there's a difference.
Your post implied there was no difference to a person committing suicide and one wanting their life to end because of terminal cancer.

RE: "Suicide is often considered to be a weakness however I believe that some suicides are the result of a carefully thought out plan with both causes and consequences considered. There is a certain amount of cold considered bravery involved.
Have terminal cancer? What do you wan to do ? Die when you want to on a nice sunny day or wait until you are in a bare hospital room with uncontrolled liquids leaking out of all orifices. OK maybe life insurance dictates the latter but... "