America on Fire

Fryer is a black American professor on HU.

His "study" was not peer reviewed or published in a journal, he is an economics professor and has been strongly critiqued for applying economic statistics principles in an invalid way for the context, and plenty of other strong critiques have come up of this work. I have not dug deeply into the subject, but his study seems to basically be saying, "black people get shot more by police because they commit more crimes, not because they're black".

Snopes article about Fryer's analysis: https://www.snopes.com/news/2016/07/15/harvard-study-officer-involved-shootings/
Other Harvard responses to Fryer: https://scholar.harvard.edu/jfeldman/blog/roland-fryer-wrong-there-racial-bias-shootings-police
 
To quote Trevor Noah
"The bubonic plague was a major event in history but we don't go around putting up statues of rats"
 
His "study" was not peer reviewed or published in a journal, he is an economics professor and has been strongly critiqued for applying economic statistics principles in an invalid way for the context, and plenty of other strong critiques have come up of this work. I have not dug deeply into the subject, but his study seems to basically be saying, "black people get shot more by police because they commit more crimes, not because they're black".

Snopes article about Fryer's analysis: https://www.snopes.com/news/2016/07/15/harvard-study-officer-involved-shootings/
Other Harvard responses to Fryer: https://scholar.harvard.edu/jfeldman/blog/roland-fryer-wrong-there-racial-bias-shootings-police


The rate of unarmed (victims) fatal shootings by the police is in line with ethnic groups, that is what he claims. He also says that use of force is disproportional to blacks (in controls, arresting).

But as you imply (I suppose you are not black), the Harvard professor is an oreo and maybe we should not trust him, despite the work being published in the Journal of Political Economy, Chicago University. Or you have a bias already.

Washington post database until recently had data for 2019 that from 41 unarmed victims, 9 were black, which was 20%. The database, however, was updated in June suddenly adding more victims.

However, 41 unarmed victims of 300+million people are not so big numbers. Police are not going around shooting unarmed black people.

But, as this article points, the real problem is police corruption and brutality, and I would repeat the link.
 
Police in the United States are a reflection of the population they police. We live in the world's most violent developed country. Gun ownership is widespread. A belief in violence as an acceptable means of conflict resolution is common.

It's true that violent crime has been decreasing since the 1990s. It's also true that our police experienced a heavy "militarization" that came about in reaction to the "war on terror." These two factors make it reasonable that we should review police tactics and ask greater questions regarding police accountability. Who polices the police? The police do, via internal affairs. That leaves open a significant door for corruption. So I don't think it's terribly onerous to bring about greater civilian oversight of the police.

All of that is a half measure until we can reform the nature of gun ownership in the United States in a way that is harmonized with American values on firearms. The police feel threatened trying to police an armed populace. It may be an intractable problem.
 
Not on CNN or MSNBC front page today, maybe he is considered as another "oreo":


Funny, I seen it on CNN. So, you think your trump shoukd get some kind of parade for placing one Black, very qualified person in a position they earned? What about all the others that were left on the sidelines that are more qualified than many of his selections?

Tell you what, I have read your postings. I simply see a white supreamist who just likes to cause trouble to support the failing trump campaign.

You can not topple statues if Mohammad because there are none. Mosque? Sure right along with the Washington Monument, Jefferson Memorial, and part of Mt. Rushmore. Owning slaves throughout history was bad and those actions should be condemned. Praising those involved in the capture and sale of and the usage of should have been condemned long ago.

I get it, you like your white privilege. I hope you van find your little bit of the world where you can feel reverent. Hey, maybe you can share a 3X3 with trump although it may be filled with like minded family members.

Don't dwell on the past. You could easily be looking at a new beginning. Your choice to be included or not. Just imagine. People actually taking the constitution seriously.
 
By the way. The call for racially equal justice is not just because blacks have been killed by police. These murders have brought it to the tipping point. It is about how blacks are treated generally by police. The protest have shown this ugliness over and over with so many times police would pull blacks from a group that includes whites and ignored the white protestors. They get stopped more for no reasons and harrased. The numbers there are pretty staggering. No, it is not just about the murders.
 
By the way. The call for racially equal justice is not just because blacks have been killed by police. These murders have brought it to the tipping point. It is about how blacks are treated generally by police. The protest have shown this ugliness over and over with so many times police would pull blacks from a group that includes whites and ignored the white protestors. They get stopped more for no reasons and harrased. The numbers there are pretty staggering. No, it is not just about the murders.

Very true. "Stop n frisk" in NYC was a very clear example, but the same root problems are systemic across the US (and, no doubt, other countries).
 
Reduction ad absurdum is my point here. If you see through 21st-century eyes the past, everybody could be a monster. Mohammad's behaviour was in line with the time, at least according to my opinion.

There should be a mature discussion in the US, based on facts. Real issues exist, however, there are 5 months till elections and that influences any discussion.

So to review, your points in this thread are as follows:

1. We can't discuss police brutality/racism in the US, because other countries are worse.
2. We can't discuss police brutality/racism in the US, because a slippery slope argument leads to having to demolish all mosques in the US/UK.
3. We can't discuss police brutality/racism in the US, because it is too close to an election.

Ok, I'm starting to see a theme here.
 
So to review, your points in this thread are as follows:

1. We can't discuss police brutality/racism in the US, because other countries are worse.
2. We can't discuss police brutality/racism in the US, because a slippery slope argument leads to having to demolish all mosques in the US/UK.
3. We can't discuss police brutality/racism in the US, because it is too close to an election.

Ok, I'm starting to see a theme here.
You still reading his drivel?
 
Funny, I seen it on CNN. So, you think your trump shoukd get some kind of parade for placing one Black, very qualified person in a position they earned? What about all the others that were left on the sidelines that are more qualified than many of his selections?
I very precisely sad said not on front page, I had to dig for information. Twisting my words.

Tell you what, I have read your postings. I simply see a white supreamist who just likes to cause trouble to support the failing trump campaign.

Sad if you see it like that. I have read your posts about coronavirus, I can see that you are critical to the Indonesian government for handling the virus, implicating that people who voted the government deserves a government like that, and looking down to the people and the country. In the meantime number of deads are in thousands, insignificant for a country of this size, actually, Indonesia is going quite well, comparing to Europe, US or Brazil-country similar to Indonesia, a patronizing attitude. I think everybody here shares this white saviour bias including you and I admit, myself.

Owning slaves throughout history was bad and those actions should be condemned. Praising those involved in the capture and sale of and the usage of should have been condemned long ago.
Totally agree, but publicly condemning that fact in Mohammad's case would make you a white bigot in the west now. I think that was a normal case for that time.

I get it, you like your white privilege. I hope you can find your little bit of the world where you can feel reverent.
On the contrary, I find it silly and unpleasant here. I fight with microaggressions to Indonesian and foreign people that find it normal.

Real problems exist, and it should be spoken about them-position of minorities, police violence.
However, making a Jacobinite justice, toppling monuments on a rally, removing movies, and at the end burning books if it happens is not in function of dialogue. Local government and elected representatives decide about their city landscape, monuments, not people on a rally unless it is a revolution.

Everything is now in the function of elections, but it is hardly possible to keep tensions so high in the next five months and to not make a new Maoist Cultural revolution. The attitude "If Trump survives, America dies" is wrong, and can backfire, making people electing lesser evil. Who would that be?
 
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So to review, your points in this thread are as follows:

1. We can't discuss police brutality/racism in the US, because other countries are worse.
2. We can't discuss police brutality/racism in the US, because a slippery slope argument leads to having to demolish all mosques in the US/UK.
3. We can't discuss police brutality/racism in the US, because it is too close to an election.

Ok, I'm starting to see a theme here.

In short, we can discuss everything, hearing what interested parties have to say, and having historical context, and being aware that elections are near and that the discussion can be poisoned a little bit.

To clarify, Democrats got momentum and if situation deescalates, they would lose the momentum. On the other side, it is hard to keep tensions high for 5 months. I have been participating and running political campaigns before and this would be my conclusion.
 
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One of the cops, Thomas Lane had his $750k bond posted. The other three are still in jail.



I think this will go down similar to the Rodney King case after the first case. For those who aren't familar with the Rodney King case, King was pulled over and beaten by 4 LA cops.

First Case: None of the cops were found not guilty which caused the LA Riots.

Second Case: 2 of the 4 cops were found guilty.


Chauvin will be found guilty and the only question is what his sentence will be. Lane, Tou Thao, and J Alexander Kueng are the question marks. Will they do a plea deal to testify against Chauvin for a reduced sentence, be looked at in their role during the arrest of Floyd, or still have a court case with no deals from the prosecution?
 
The problem if you no longer have a functioning police force, which is what happens if you start jailing them while asking them to risk their lives every day, is you end up like PNG where there isn't any protection against criminals at all. Then mafia / gangs would be the ones dispensing justice instead. On the positive side they might be less racist than the police.
 
I very precisely sad said not on front page, I had to dig for information. Twisting my words.



Sad if you see it like that. I have read your posts about coronavirus, I can see that you are critical to the Indonesian government for handling the virus, implicating that people who voted the government deserves a government like that, and looking down to the people and the country. In the meantime number of deads are in thousands, insignificant for a country of this size, actually, Indonesia is going quite well, comparing to Europe, US or Brazil-country similar to Indonesia, a patronizing attitude. I think everybody here shares this white saviour bias including you and I admit, myself.


Totally agree, but publicly condemning that fact in Mohammad's case would make you a white bigot in the west now. I think that was a normal case for that time.


On the contrary, I find it silly and unpleasant here. I fight with microaggressions to Indonesian and foreign people that find it normal.

Real problems exist, and it should be spoken about them-position of minorities, police violence.
However, making a Jacobinite justice, toppling monuments on a rally, removing movies, and at the end burning books if it happens is not in function of dialogue. Local government and elected representatives decide about their city landscape, monuments, not people on a rally unless it is a revolution.

Everything is now in the function of elections, but it is hardly possible to keep tensions so high in the next five months and to not make a new Maoist Cultural revolution. The attitude "If Trump survives, America dies" is wrong, and can backfire, making people electing lesser evil. Who would that be?
Not on front page? Did you even try turning on your TV. It was boadcasted right there in plain sight for everyone to see. No digging required.

You are quite correct that I am critical of the government here and in the US. You want to think that the government must be doing good since the numbers are low. That's a trump view if there ever was one. The fact is, at first, like trump, the government denied it. People getting sick and dying for all kinds of reasons except, covid 19. Burial numbers way up from previous years across the nation. Then, just like trump, it isn't so bad. We'll pray it away or the warmer temps will keep it away. One excuse after another. All to save the economy, just like trump. Now you say numbers are low. Are they? There is little to no testing in the more remote areas. When people get sick they do not want others to know because of the negativity they feel it woukd bring to the family or that they will not be allowed to be buried in the cemitary they want. Deaths are still way up compared to last year. The government in the mean time is opening up the country. Gee, who does that sound like. The experts say don't worry about a second wave yet because the first one is far from finished. If you decided to not be so selective when reading my post you would have also come across that I support this government except for the way they have handled the virus response. Of course, then you wouldn't really have an argument, would you? Saying that people who voted for trump got just what they deserved still stands true.

Sorry, the white savior thing just never fit me. I desire no spot light and find that being helpful and understanding towards thise that host me to be more beneficial for all.

I truly laugh every time you bring up Mohammad. So islamiphobic. For such a big researcher of facts, why are you not calling for the closing of Christian, Catholic, or any other Christian based church. Look it up. Every Abrahamic religion at one time endorsed slavery. You pick out one showing your true anti Islam agenda. You say you live here. You really shouldn't.

It is not a function of dialog because dialog has failed for so many years. That is why when people seen an opportunity, they acted. What is your thing about statues that praise American traders or slave sellers? As far as I am concerned, those confederate statues represent people who were shooting at those carrying the stars and stripes. Are you really that unAmerican? You support the defeated traitors?

I doubt any momentum will change. It may be aimed at some other trump foolery but will not subside. You are looking at Dems and Repubs leaving out the Independents who out number either party. Trump has lost the majority he once had. He has also lost millions of republicans that voted for him in 2016. He has proven to not be a conservitive and has fed his rich supporters with more profits leaving out the middle class. He has lined his pockets along the way. People see this. Take this to the bank. As a lifelong republican, I can say in 2016 I didn't vote for trump. I went the lessor of 2 evils and voted for another I disliked very much butbtrusted her with the nation more than some egotistical power hungry maniac. This election is vote blue no matter who because of what trump has done to the US Nation. What a sorry state it is in. Runs to a bunker afraid of his own citizens. Never happened in history. Tear gasses and pepper sprays peaceful protesters for a photo op. What a leader, what a man. Slime.
 
Not on CNN or MSNBC front page today, maybe he is considered as another "oreo":

Not sure if the term 'oreo' is appropriate considering our subject in hand is racial inequality towards black people in the US and the rest of the world.
 
Not on front page? Did you even try turning on your TV. It was boadcasted right there in plain sight for everyone to see. No digging required.

Apologies, I do not watch any news on TV, all news that I receive are from websites. For the US, CNN, Fox and MSBC.

I truly laugh every time you bring up Mohammad. So islamiphobic. For such a big researcher of facts, why are you not calling for the closing of Christian, Catholic, or any other Christian based church. Look it up. Every Abrahamic religion at one time endorsed slavery. You pick out one showing your true anti Islam agenda. You say you live here. You really shouldn't.

Disagree. Comparison with Muhammad was to point the absurdity of the arguments of the crowds. If they follow their argument, they would close even the mosques, as the founder was a slave owner. Jesus was not. As madness continues, now "Gone With the Wind" is removed from HBO.

Concerning the Church, the French revolution put them in the right place and in one moment banned Christianity for several years (a positive thing). After that, the Church was reinstated and we can enjoy a secular state now.
Thousand-year dark in Europe was caused by religion, and as somebody said, it is opium for masses. But this is not a subject here.


I went the lessor of 2 evils and voted for another I disliked very much butbtrusted her with the nation more than some egotistical power hungry maniac.

Lesser evil that you have chosen, Hillary, was a part of the democrat-republican establishment, and that establishment was responsible for stupid foreign policy, endless wars, starting from Iraq, that effectively made the ISIS, Sirya, Libia, toppling down dictators without a plan and making chaos, sending millions of refugees to Europe, that caused a rise of the right-wing populism in Europe, that will hopefully not end with fascism.
I would be doubtful who was the lesser evil.
 
Disagree. Comparison with Muhammad was to point the absurdity of the arguments of the crowds. If they follow their argument, they would close even the mosques, as the founder was a slave owner. Jesus was not. As madness continues, now "Gone With the Wind" is removed from HBO.

I'd been avoiding this part of the thread because it's wildly off topic. As a rule of thumb, I try to avoid drawn out discussions on my two favorite topics here. However, in the interest of an alternative view of the life of Muhammad and as a means to direct the conversation back to the original post, I'll comment on this matter exactly once.

To say that Muhammad could be viewed through the prism of being a "man of his time" on the issue of slavery is incorrect. He was radically different, and while he did not attempt to completely abolish slavery he did make manumission rather than enslavement the normative in the Sunnah.

Just how deeply involved in manumission was Muhammad? For starters, he freed and then adopted a slave to be his son. Zayd ibn Haritha was then made a commander in the Muslim armies, and is among the most important members of the sahaba. Similarly, Muhammad encouraged Abu Bakr to free Bilal. Afterwards, Bilal was made treasurer of the early Islamic state. There's more than a few ahadith concerning the activity of manumission, it's even one of only two options for a Muslim to "make up" for obligatory fasting during Ramadan.

Now, to get back on track, I think what you're trying to say here is that the zealous nature of modern progressive politics seeks ideological purity. If progressive voices are completely honest with themselves, why don't they ahem "come for" complicated, largely non-white movements and figures they have aligned themselves with?

That's an easy one. The common thread is whiteness and the imposition of a white identity. It is viewed, in my opinion completely nonsensically, as being the causative agent in racism against everyone who falls under the rubric of "people of color." In addition when speaking of Muslims, there is a sentiment on the progressive left that we are a marginalized body. As victimhood is prized for them, ideologically, they see it as sensible to align themselves with us.

Keep in mind, I'm for the most part nobody's idea of a liberal. My highly conservative take on most social issues would make them clutch their pearls. But, because most of my co-religionists are brown and because we're subject to significantly more policing than other populations, there's cachet in identifying with our struggle (e.g. the Palestinian question, BOY do they love to wear a keffiyeh...)

I think where this conversation needs to be directed is how the left has become so open minded that its collective brain has fallen out. Abolish the police? Tacit support for political violence with apologia for rioters? The "problematic" nature of Paw Patrol (yes, that one is sadly real)?

There's a real issue here: the reality that black Americans are policed differently, that this has a body count, that we've never given proper redress for slavery, that there's a prison industrial complex in this country, that the wealth gap between white and black Americans is so absurd as to create two different Americas... It's just being muddled by the lunatic fringe currently speaking for everyone.
 
Lesser evil that you have chosen, Hillary, was a part of the democrat-republican establishment, and that establishment was responsible for stupid foreign policy, endless wars, starting from Iraq, that effectively made the ISIS, Sirya, Libia, toppling down dictators without a plan and making chaos, sending millions of refugees to Europe, that caused a rise of the right-wing populism in Europe, that will hopefully not end with fascism.
I would be doubtful who was the lesser evil.
Fascism. I bet you know a lot about that being you are certainly a fascist hugging supporter. Hey, I have an idea.

Why not just admit it and shout out how you are privileged white racist fascist. You seem to admit it here. Go ahead, admit it to all. OK, maybe you're the type that needs some courage. Do you happen to have some type of big gun you could hold to make up for that lack of courage? Maybe you could make a paper one and you could hold it in front of a picture of your savior, trump. Damn, I bet those twisted Evangelical supporters would just love you.

Answer or not. I am finished with your racist ways. Go fight your war against humanity.
 
As a further example of what I'm speaking of, consider this article on the "need" to take down monuments to Jefferson and Washington (yes, THAT Thomas Jefferson and George Washington).


From the article, "American history is not all glorious... George Washington was a slave owner. We need to call slave owners out for what they are. Whether we think they were protecting American freedom or not, he wasn't protecting my freedoms," the network contributor said."

She goes on to speak about white supremacy.

What we're witnessing here is indeed a reaction to the national narrative of the United States. For people like my children, people who grow up with something other than a white identity, how do they view these figures? Well, in this case, the growing consensus of the progressive left is the notion that slave owning is the sole moral authority on which we should judge our foundation. Any individual or organization or institution with a connection to such history is singled out for historical review as being unfit for a modern American identity.

What I have to ask here, though, is what will we replace it with? There's significant push and effort to destroy the existing national identity. Is there a replacement waiting in the wings? What does the new American pantheon look like?

This question will remain unanswered, because I don't think we've reached a point where it exists and we may Balkanize given further instability. I am willing to consider a significant reordering of our national narrative, but I would caution the zealots who insist it must happen immediately.

When you accommodate fanatics there is always more fanaticism to accommodate.
 
Times like these tend to make all sorts of creatures come out from under their rocks.

While stupid folks on the fringe of left is fully capable of as much idiocy as on the right, I strongly disagree with simple equivalency between the two.

We are here due to the failure to curb the violent excesses of systemic racism in USA. The left is not the villain this time around.
 

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