Trump Indicted for Conspiracy To Change the 2020 Election

[Hawk256]

Shot an unarmed woman who were actively breaking down a door to get in. If somebody is breaking down the door to my house, in Indiana I’d be legally justified to use deadly force.

They are not shooting the BLM protesters entering public or private places with molotov cocktails and other incendiary devices.

 

[Nimbus]

They are not shooting the BLM protesters entering public or private places with molotov cocktails and other incendiary devices.

Right, but they had no problem shooting many unarmed black people in other circumstances. The entire BLM thing was due to the police being too heavy handed to unarmed black people. It’s hard to sympathize with the MAGA crowd crying about being shot at by the police, when they actively reject the fact that the police are too trigger happy to black people.

You say the police commits unjustified shooting only after they started shooting you too. The dudes with the thin blue line flags and punisher skull t-shirts are complaining when the blue line shoots at them.

The looters were abhorrent, but they were just looking for stuff. The January 6 crowd were trying to stop a constitutional process that would affect the entire nation. Conservatives treat the constitution like their second bible, but apparently only when they’re winning. If they’re losing it’s worth less than toilet paper.

 

[fastpitch17]

So you liked the results at Tienamen Square?
Lethal force wasn't justified at the point it was used. Police get away with unjustified killings far too often in the US. Unwarranted is unwarranted, whether it happens in Cleveland or the Capitol.

No, I did not like the results of Tienamen Square. Where did the victims threaten the authorities? Yes, far too many unjust killings by the police in the US but then you act like the BLM protest were unwarranted.

Tienamen Square didn't have people breaking windows trying to enter a secure area.

BLM had a legitimate cause instigated by unjust police killings of black individuals. Jan 6 had no legitimate cause only lies to influence a riot.

 

[fastpitch17]

Just what do the Jan 6 riots and the BLM marches have to do with trump being indicted? The Indictments don't mention the Jan 6 riots. I understand the conservitive media is out in force declaring thus is a 1st Amendment, Freedom of Speech injustice towards trump and his brain dead followers are on board declaring the same. Big problem though. If his followers and those conservative media types actually could read they would have found in page 2, yep, only page 2 where Jack Smith says trump is entitled to his words be they truths or lies with 1st Amendment protections. This indictment isn't about what trump said that may have led some to the Jan 6 riots, it's all about his and his conspirators actions to change the 2020 election outcome.

When this gets in the courtroom the Prosecution is going to present that trump knew he lost but still proceeded to try to change the outcome of the election. There are those already trying to argue that trump sincerely thought and believed he won so is innocent. The only person that van legitimately testify to that is trump himself and we all knows what happens if trump would take the stand. He leaves court with more charges against him than when he arrived.

 

[centurion]

So people protesting with a backpack are ok to shoot dead if they come too close to the building? Seen a lot of destruction with many of the BLM protests and no one was shot and killed. And yes they were entering court and other governement buildings along with private property as well and throwing molotov cocktails and other incendiary devices.

Of course unarmed people are not to be shot if there was no self-defense, but if you watched the video carefully, you would see her moving her fast jumping trough the door window (this is not a shop looted by criminals, and yes, criminals killed some people while looting, and this is not a local courthouse but the US congress).

Put yourself on the other side of the door and what are you seeing and how would you react. Same as an innocent kid coming to Israeli checkpoint blowing himself.

 

[Bob]

Right, but they had no problem shooting many unarmed black people in other circumstances. The entire BLM thing was due to the police being too heavy handed to unarmed black people. It’s hard to sympathize with the MAGA crowd crying about being shot at by the police, when they actively reject the fact that the police are too trigger happy to black people.

You say the police commits unjustified shooting only after they started shooting you too. The dudes with the thin blue line flags and punisher skull t-shirts are complaining when the blue line shoots at them.

The looters were abhorrent, but they were just looking for stuff. The January 6 crowd were trying to stop a constitutional process that would affect the entire nation. Conservatives treat the constitution like their second bible, but apparently only when they’re winning. If they’re losing it’s worth less than toilet paper.

Everybody should complain when the police shoot at them if it's unjustified. Police shooting unarmed people is almost always unacceptable, whether the one(s) shot are MAGA or Antifa or anyone else. At the Capitol the victim was MAGA, which ties in with this thread. The woman deserved jail but in no way was lethal force justified.
I don't see anyone here saying the police do unjustified shootings only when their side's the target. I do see what looks like cheering for the other side getting shot.

 

[Bob]

No, I did not like the results of Tienamen Square. Where did the victims threaten the authorities? Yes, far too many unjust killings by the police in the US but then you act like the BLM protest were unwarranted.

Tienamen Square didn't have people breaking windows trying to enter a secure area.

BLM had a legitimate cause instigated by unjust police killings of black individuals. Jan 6 had no legitimate cause only lies to influence a riot.

Tienamen Square is a public area, like the halls of the Capitol. Those protesting were told to leave and they didn't, so they were trespassing. In neither case were the police or military's lives in danger, and the use of lethal force was unjustified in both cases. Terribly the scale at Tienamen was much greater.
BLM was justified to protest. Anyone in the US is justified to protest unwarranted police shootings, because police shoot a lot of people of all races for no good reason. BLM and their Antifa buds were not justified to riot, loot, assault and batter, rob, and burn, which they did again and again. I'm glad they weren't shot en masse, but I'd like to see those who did such things doing serious time.

 

[Ruserious]

Wow its intersting how quickly the sides form even in here.

So as an outsider to this I feel that Tianamen Square demonstrators were justified in being there as there was no democracy to begin with, but that storming the capital on Jan 6 was not. I think demonstrating outside and in the roads etc was fine but breaking into congress crosses a line. To justify it you would have to believe that the election was actually stolen and that democracy was threatened and to me this would require a conspiracy level involving so many people that its just not possible.

@Bob do you really think that the capitol is public area that demonstrators should be allowed free access to even whilst they are in session?

 

[Nimbus]

Everybody should complain when the police shoot at them if it's unjustified. Police shooting unarmed people is almost always unacceptable, whether the one(s) shot are MAGA or Antifa or anyone else. At the Capitol the victim was MAGA, which ties in with this thread. The woman deserved jail but in no way was lethal force justified.
I don't see anyone here saying the police do unjustified shootings only when their side's the target. I do see what looks like cheering for the other side getting shot.

The other side has been cheering for the BLM side getting shot for a while. As a gun owner and carrier I frequented gun forums where the vast majority are conservatives, so I know their lingo, dog whistles, and general opinion on the subject. I don’t know if the January 6 crowd is here on this forum, but they are most definitely here where I live.

 

[R Cameron]

Just what do the Jan 6 riots and the BLM marches have to do with trump being indicted? The Indictments don't mention the Jan 6 riots.

This is simply not true, there is a whole subsection of the indictment from page 39 to 42 titled "The Defendant’s Exploitation of the Violence and Chaos at the Capitol".

But otherwise I agree.

 

[gemima]

Wow its intersting how quickly the sides form even in here.

So as an outsider to this I feel that Tianamen Square demonstrators were justified in being there as there was no democracy to begin with, but that storming the capital on Jan 6 was not. I think demonstrating outside and in the roads etc was fine but breaking into congress crosses a line. To justify it you would have to believe that the election was actually stolen and that democracy was threatened and to me this would require a conspiracy level involving so many people that its just not possible.

@Bob do you really think that the capitol is public area that demonstrators should be allowed free access to even whilst they are in session?

Just to add - the room that woman was attempting to jump into had capital staff in it (maybe even some senators? had they got them out by then...it was a close thing) that the police were protecting.
I sincerely believe, if some of those protesters had got their hands on Pence or Pelosi they would have ended up dead. I know most of the protestors weren't out for blood but there was an element in the crowd who were malicious.

Its awful the woman died - but what was she expecting to happen??!! People need to take some personal responsibility for their actions.

 

[Bob]

Wow its intersting how quickly the sides form even in here.

So as an outsider to this I feel that Tianamen Square demonstrators were justified in being there as there was no democracy to begin with, but that storming the capital on Jan 6 was not. I think demonstrating outside and in the roads etc was fine but breaking into congress crosses a line. To justify it you would have to believe that the election was actually stolen and that democracy was threatened and to me this would require a conspiracy level involving so many people that its just not possible.

@Bob do you really think that the capitol is public area that demonstrators should be allowed free access to even whilst they are in session?

That's hardly what I said.

 

[Hawk256]

The other side has been cheering for the BLM side getting shot for a while. As a gun owner and carrier I frequented gun forums where the vast majority are conservatives, so I know their lingo, dog whistles, and general opinion on the subject. I don’t know if the January 6 crowd is here on this forum, but they are most definitely here where I live.

Fuuny how people make it sound like there sides in this. Shooting someone without good reason is abhorrent no matter if you are conservative or liberal. This is part of the problem in the US. There is too much of an us vs them mentality. We the people, would be a good place to start.

 

[Nimbus]

Fuuny how people make it sound like there sides in this. Shooting someone without good reason is abhorrent no matter if you are conservative or liberal. This is part of the problem in the US. There is too much of an us vs them mentality. We the people, would be a good place to start.

It is funny, but the reality is there are sides to this. Maybe I’m biased because I hung around deplorables with guns (and lived in Alabama and Georgia for nearly a decade), but many were making memes and mocking the ‘I can’t breathe’ thing. Yes, they make fun of the unarmed guy who died because he was suffocated by police. Their view is that the police are the thin blue line between the good folks (them) and the ‘thugs’ (black people), therefore if you get into trouble with the police, it must be your fault. As white people they have never experienced walking while black, jogging while black, or driving while black, so it’s easy for them to say that cops are always good.

I expected that everybody would be appalled by police brutality in USA that unnecessarily took the life of Trayvon Martin, and I expected that everybody would sympathize with the Black Lives Matter movement, at least in the beginning before all the protests and riots.

The fact is that BLM was never supported by more than 60% of people. Trump can reliably count on 40% of the vote no matter what. Coincidence? I don’t think so.

 

[Hawk256]

It is funny, but the reality is there are sides to this. Maybe I’m biased because I hung around deplorables with guns (and lived in Alabama and Georgia for nearly a decade), but many were making memes and mocking the ‘I can’t breathe’ thing. Yes, they make fun of the unarmed guy who died because he was suffocated by police. Their view is that the police are the thin blue line between the good folks (them) and the ‘thugs’ (black people), therefore if you get into trouble with the police, it must be your fault. As white people they have never experienced walking while black, jogging while black, or driving while black, so it’s easy for them to say that cops are always good.

View attachment 3297

I expected that everybody would be appalled by police brutality in USA that unnecessarily took the life of Trayvon Martin, and I expected that everybody would sympathize with the Black Lives Matter movement, at least in the beginning before all the protests and riots.

The fact is that BLM was never supported by more than 60% of people. Trump can reliably count on 40% of the vote no matter what. Coincidence? I don’t think so.

Let's be honest though. Trayvon Martin wasn't a model citizen and had been arrested multiple times with some of them being violent. He as already in the police car at one point and decided to resist more. Not saying that he deserved to die but as someone posted earlier, people need to take more responsibility for their actions. BLM isn't exactly squeakly clean either. Look at some of their members actions and they have a convicted terrorist raising money for them. Don't shoot the messenger, I am just presenting both sides.

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www.kusi.com

 

[R Cameron]

Let's be honest though. Trayvon Martin wasn't a model citizen and had been arrested multiple times with some of them being violent. He as already in the police car at one point and decided to resist more. Not saying that he deserved to die but as someone posted earlier, people need to take more responsibility for their actions. BLM isn't exactly squeakly clean either. Look at some of their members actions and they have a convicted terrorist raising money for them. Don't shoot the messenger, I am just presenting both sides.

404 - Page Not Found | FOX 5 San Diego & KUSI News

www.kusi.com

You are confusing Trayvon Martin who was killed by a vigilante wannabe-cop with George Floyd who was killed by uniformed police.

Not being a "model citizen" and even resisting is hardly an excuse for 9+ minutes of lethal pressure applied to the neck. Which is why he's in prison convicted on all charges including murder. This isn't a "both sides" issue, it was criminal police abuse and murder.

 

[Hawk256]

You are confusing Trayvon Martin who was killed by a vigilante wannabe-cop with George Floyd who was killed by uniformed police.

Not being a "model citizen" and even resisting is hardly an excuse for 9+ minutes of lethal pressure applied to the neck. Which is why he's in prison convicted on all charges including murder. This isn't a "both sides" issue, it was criminal police abuse and murder.

You are correct. I realized that a little while after the post. My point was that complying may have saved his life in George Floyd's case. Just like the woman that got killed going into the capital, if she had stayed outside, she wouldn't have been shot. Gemima brought up the point that people need to take some personal responsibility for their own actions. Regardelss of how you feel about the situation, if he had stayed in the police car and not resisted, he would still be alive. Just like if the woman had stayed outside of the capital, she would still be alive. Why is she responsible for her actions but not George Floyd? Neither should be dead.

 

[Pak Tani]

The fact is that BLM was never supported by more than 60% of people. Trump can reliably count on 40% of the vote no matter what.

These geniuses called for a national defunding of the police. 60% is still very high imo.

 

[Bob]

It is funny, but the reality is there are sides to this. Maybe I’m biased because I hung around deplorables with guns (and lived in Alabama and Georgia for nearly a decade), but many were making memes and mocking the ‘I can’t breathe’ thing. Yes, they make fun of the unarmed guy who died because he was suffocated by police. Their view is that the police are the thin blue line between the good folks (them) and the ‘thugs’ (black people), therefore if you get into trouble with the police, it must be your fault. As white people they have never experienced walking while black, jogging while black, or driving while black, so it’s easy for them to say that cops are always good.

View attachment 3297

I expected that everybody would be appalled by police brutality in USA that unnecessarily took the life of Trayvon Martin, and I expected that everybody would sympathize with the Black Lives Matter movement, at least in the beginning before all the protests and riots.

The fact is that BLM was never supported by more than 60% of people. Trump can reliably count on 40% of the vote no matter what. Coincidence? I don’t think so.

I suppose reasons more people didn't support BLM were because of its racial exclusivity, violent protests, ludicrous demands, and it effectively being a corporate scam run for the financial benefit of its founders.
I wouldn't equate seeing BLM as misguided with support for Trump. I know a lot of folks who have disdain for both.

 

[Nimbus]

You are correct. I realized that a little while after the post. My point was that complying may have saved his life in George Floyd's case. Just like the woman that got killed going into the capital, if she had stayed outside, she wouldn't have been shot. Gemima brought up the point that people need to take some personal responsibility for their own actions. Regardelss of how you feel about the situation, if he had stayed in the police car and not resisted, he would still be alive. Just like if the woman had stayed outside of the capital, she would still be alive. Why is she responsible for her actions but not George Floyd? Neither should be dead.

It was my mistake, confusing Martin with Floyd. Unfortunately there are so many names.

Let me bring over two concepts: draconian and double standard.

Draco was a legislator in ancient Greece who started writing the constitution for Athens. There was basically only one type of punishment: death. You murder somebody and the punishment is death, you steal an apple and the punishment is also death. Draconian entered the English language as the definition for excessive punishment. It is specifically prohibited by the 8th amendment to the U.S. constitution that calls it “cruel and unusual punishment.”

Why do we need to ban cruel and unusual punishments? If everybody abides by the law then nobody gets punished, it’s personal responsibility, right? Death for stealing an apple is only relevant if you steal an apple, right?

The answer to a religious person is that we are all sinners, and a secular person would say “to err is human.” We will run afoul of one law or another at least once in a lifetime. Somebody calculated that the average American breaks 3 federal criminal laws per day, so we’ll run out of people if death is the only punishment for each offense.

Death as punishment for resisting an arrest is cruel and unusual.

I’m going to save you the long winded discussion about justification for use of deadly force, I have done it too many times. Police in USA is allowed to use deadly force (a.k.a. shooting) if they feel a serious threat to their safety and others’. The problem is the standard is very lenient for cops. If I as a civilian licensed firearms carrier shoots a guy who approaches me menacingly and suddenly draws a black object from his pocket, I would surely be criminally prosecuted and civilly sued for all I have. Police officers routinely get away with it. They are also protected by “qualified immunity”, which means they can’t be sued for doing something wrong, unless the court has previously found that the exact action falls outside qualified immunity.

In short, a law for thee but not for me, also known as a double standard.

We live in the age of smartphone video, and also police bodycams. There are so many videos of U.S. police interactions out there. There’s no shortage of police officers being extra patient and bending over backward for clearly unreasonable and potentially dangerous persons on camera, the glaring problem is that the vast majority of the captured interactions are with white people. American police by and large are capable of exercising discretion and smart judgment, and they often give you the benefit of the doubt before drawing their service pistol, if you’re white. If you’re not white, a seemingly small mistake can turn deadly.

I’ve had several interactions with the police, and sadly I have to report that most were unpleasant, despite me being nothing but polite and compliant.

Again, double standard.