The US Electoral System: a discussion

[snpark]

Moderation note: I have moved the off-topic posts from the BPJS Facade thread to its own thread here.

BPJS is not perfect, but my dad received surgery that would be downright impossible to afford in USA without solid insurance, even the copay would still be in the thousands of dollars range. It says a lot when a developing country still plagued by corruption like Indonesia has a better health system than USA.

And electoral system lol

 

[fastpitch17]

And electoral system lol

There is nothing wrong with the US Electoral system. It's a great system. The only problems are those that want to abuse it for personal gain. It works, it should not change. The world is damn lucky it worked in 2020. The facist only want to claim it doesn't work and are willing to lie, cheat, steal, and work strong arm deals in dark backrooms.

 

[Bob]

And electoral system lol

The system's fine. The problem is the quality of the candidates.

 

[Pak Tani]

The system's fine. The problem is the quality of the candidates.

There are plenty of competent people living in the US. Yet at the elections the people have to chose between a near senile man and someone who proposed to inject desinfectant against Covid.
How is this not a problem of the electoral system?

 

[fastpitch17]

There are plenty of competent people living in the US. Yet at the elections the people have to chose between a near senile man and someone who proposed to inject desinfectant against Covid.
How is this not a problem of the electoral system?

The candidates are not the system in place. Nothing wrong with the system even if the candidates are lousy.

 

[Pak Tani]

The candidates are not the system in place.

The system determines who can stand as a candidate.

We'll probably agree that there are plenty of competent leaders to-be, how come people could only choose between the two gentlemen mentioned above?

If it is not the system, what is it then?

 

[R Cameron]

@fastpitch17 which system are you referring to? simply the Electoral College?

Personally, I am in favor of abolishing the Electoral College, but even keeping it there is plenty wrong with the system; first-past-the-post voting, super-PACs, Citizens United, purging of voter rolls, closed primaries, super-delegates, lack of a national holiday for election day, lack of automatic voter registration, difficult mail-in/absentee ballots, and on, and on.

 

[fastpitch17]

The system was set up as one elegeble voter, one vote. I agree the Electorial College needs to go or at least be modified to better represent the nation today. The system as it was set up works. The problem is all tha bad actors that have come out changing State voting requirements.

When you get down to it, it is still the people who are voted in by the voters. One says there needs to be more than 2 parties. There are but they have pretty weak goes at getting votes. There are various requirements to run for office and they are not impossible to meet but if a party can't meet them, why should they be taken seriously.

Right now you have a GOP that is looking at total control of the people. Reminds me of Communism. Then you have a Dem Party who is acting like a typical Dem party. All talk but no backbone to get things done. But really, do they make a difference?

Voting comes down to a candidate that people want to vote for. The bad apples are trying to change things to only favor their party which today is the GOP and if the Dems had their way, or fought for them, they would get more voters their direction. The US has primary elections and the people choose who is the candidate for the general election. Less than 20% of the voters are Dem voters and even less are the GOP voters and there are good and bad apples in both. It is Independents that decide an election coming in at over 40% now.

What's the biggest problem with US elections. Of course, outside influance from hostile nations surely rings some bells but you also need to include the media. They give the far right and far left way too much voice.

State legislatures are breaking the US voting system and the only way to get that changed since the majority dems can't seem to get anything done as they sit around and let the GOP attack them, is to get the bad apples out of state and national offices. We know how that goes.

All the US needs to do is put trump back in or the likes of Disantis and watch the self destruction of a nation. Put Biden back in or the likes of Sanders and watch nothing get done. If the Dems had a candidate that was more backbone than words, they would be the force to recon with. If the GOP had a candidate that was pro America and not just pro party, that would be a breath of fresh air.

Still, come voting time the US will probably look the same as it has in a long time. The 9nly positive I have is that I live in Indonesia. I will die in Indonesia. None of the things either party does to mess up the US even more affects me personally. I go on. Unless Indonesia allows more chinese influance or the US goes to war in the Pacific again, I can sleep at night. I just feel sorry for all the people in the US and especially for all the missinformed be they far right or left.

 

[R Cameron]

What's the biggest problem with US elections. Of course, outside influance from hostile nations surely rings some bells but you also need to include the media. They give the far right and far left way too much voice.

I don't deny for a minute that hostile nations have been meddling in both overt and covert ways and it's a huge problem, but I think the biggest problem is still domestic, with American corporations and wealthy Americans exerting far more destructive influence than the foreign influences. Citizens United completely upended American politics.

If I could choose to implement just one election reforms for the US it would be overturning Citizens United. If I could do a second, it would simple, no registration, online voting for anyone 18+ with a SS number. If a third as well, ranked choice voting.

Any one of those would massively change the outcomes, and all three together would make a democracy that is much more representative of its citizens.

 

[fastpitch17]

As long as the Electorial College exist, elections will never represent the actual voters. States need to lose their powers in setting elections as for who can vote in any election. There needs to be a federal, non partisan, independent council that sets voting districts in every state based on a fair census of the populations. Pipe dreams.

 

[snpark]

Presidential election should be a seperate election with 2 names, him or the other him

Then its a straight out result clear winner popular vote
Not all this crap about voting for the guy in a party in your state to represent the party who then picks the president

Should just be a flat out popularity vote
Simple

 

[Bob]

As long as the Electorial College exist, elections will never represent the actual voters. States need to lose their powers in setting elections as for who can vote in any election. There needs to be a federal, non partisan, independent council that sets voting districts in every state based on a fair census of the populations. Pipe dreams.

The electoral college system helps protect the interests of the smaller states and thus helps dampen the tyranny of the majority. If we want a unitary republic like Indonesia we can ditch the EC but it we want to continue a with Federalism then the EC is beneficial.

 

[Bob]

I don't deny for a minute that hostile nations have been meddling in both overt and covert ways and it's a huge problem, but I think the biggest problem is still domestic, with American corporations and wealthy Americans exerting far more destructive influence than the foreign influences. Citizens United completely upended American politics.

If I could choose to implement just one election reforms for the US it would be overturning Citizens United. If I could do a second, it would simple, no registration, online voting for anyone 18+ with a SS number. If a third as well, ranked choice voting.

Any one of those would massively change the outcomes, and all three together would make a democracy that is much more representative of its citizens.

The Citizens United decision is awful for the people, well agreed. The US has to address political donation reform soon if we hope to have the interests of the people put before the interests of corporations.

 

[Bob]

The system determines who can stand as a candidate.

We'll probably agree that there are plenty of competent leaders to-be, how come people could only choose between the two gentlemen mentioned above?

If it is not the system, what is it then?

When I initially replied I was thinking of the electoral system as how votes determine the winners, and I don't see a problem with the current setup.
But if we want to include the nomination process then maybe it can be improved, if we can find a way to eliminate money as a factor in who gets party nominations.

 

[Pak Tani]

When I initially replies I was thinking of the electoral system as how votes determine the winners, and I don't see a problem with the current setup.
But if we want to include the nomination process then maybe it can be improved, if we can find a way to eliminate money as a factor in who gets party nominations.

I was wondering, how the game is currently played, how does a republican at heart vote if he doesn't want Trump to be his president? Or a Democrat who doesn't have much faith in Joe Biden?

A nomination process is a possible solution for that. Sounds good.

 

[fastpitch17]

I was wondering, how the game is currently played, how does a republican at heart vote if he doesn't want Trump to be his president? Or a Democrat who doesn't have much faith in Joe Biden?

A nomination process is a possible solution for that. Sounds good.

There is a nomination process. A number of Dems or Repubs want to run for whatever office. Once requirements are met to run, they face each other in a primary election to choose the candidate. Most states have primaries in individual parties but a full lump all elegeble, no matter their party affiliation together and the top 2 vote getters are the candidates even if both from the same party.

The primary votting is for the people choosing who they want as a candidate. If someone runs you don't like, you choose another. If the person you don't like should happen to win the primary, you then need to make some decisions. You can vote for them because of party loyalty, you can vote for the opponent from the other party to keep the ine you don't like out like with Biden winning by getting so much help to keep trump out, you can write in a name if your choosing even though your vote will be ignired in the end, or, you can skip voting where you end up with no voice in the election.

 

[fastpitch17]

Presidential election should be a seperate election with 2 names, him or the other him

Then its a straight out result clear winner popular vote
Not all this crap about voting for the guy in a party in your state to represent the party who then picks the president

Should just be a flat out popularity vote
Simple

Evidently you think only men can be president. Maybe that is the problem to begin with.

 

[snpark]

Oh come on you know what I meant don't be twat

I've even said on here before leave everything to the women

 

[Vanuatu]

The electoral college system helps protect the interests of the smaller states and thus helps dampen the tyranny of the majority. If we want a unitary republic like Indonesia we can ditch the EC but it we want to continue a with Federalism then the EC is beneficial.

I can't agree with this. The state that my vote would count for always has it's electoral votes (all 4 of them) go to the democratic candidate. 100% of the time since statehood. I don't bother voting for the president as my vote is absolutely meaningless. So speaking as a voter from a small state, I can say the EC disfranchises voters who know their vote doesn't count.

 

[R Cameron]

There is an agreement in process that would functionally abolish the Electoral College without the nearly impossible task of a constitutional amendment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact

Basically, individual states comprising 51% of the Electoral College vote all pass laws that they will give their electors to the winner of the national popular vote, insuring the victory of the popular vote winner. It's actually surprisingly close to becoming a reality. As the Wikipedia article shows, 36% of electoral votes have already signed on, and several additional states have legislation in-process and if most or all of them pass it the 51% threshold would be passed.

The small states already get a huge boost in power and influence in the Senate, that compromise is plenty to satisfy the concerns of "the tyranny of the majority", in my opinion.