Punishment for women who don't want to wear jilbab

[Vanhelsing]

Being a women its something that we can easily talk about openly together....

Another female expat's incite into Indonesian living is good to have around the place. Please post more.

 

[fastpitch17]

Hmmmm... from Indonesian jilbabs to ISIS & terrorists.... not hard to ser your agenda, since it is not all that cunningly disguised.

What is not hard to see is that no one including you would ever question as to why these things started here or what the influence may have been. Just another that goes on not wanting to know anything because some book told you so it seems. Sorry if I dent that little bubble of yours. I have no agenda but to ask why and how come. Maybe I would change my mind on what I personally think of them. It is obvious you have no idea so I will accept that as your answer.

 

[Pak Tani]

What is not hard to see is that no one including you would ever question as to why these things started here or what the influence may have been.

Why muslim women started wearing jilbabs? You must be kidding?

 

[fastpitch17]

Why muslim women started wearing jilbabs? You must be kidding?

Muslim Women in Indonesia which has taken place within the past 25 years. ME Muslim Woman have been wearing them like forever. Not Indonesian Women or didn't you notice?

 

[dafluff]

Moderation note: Please note that this thread is NOT in the Cage, and as such is subject to the full Posting Guidelines. Please try to keep it civil, or take it to the Cage if applicable. Thank you.

 

[Pak Tani]

To me the hijab takes away from the culture that was centuries old. For what?

The same can be said about millions of Indonesians who are now wearing jeans and t-shirts. Does that bother you also? Societies change, they always have and they always will.

Why the hijab and not a scarf or other covering of some type? What made the hijab the choice of the Islamic leaders who started getting the females to wearing it?

An islamic hijab or jilbab is a piece of garment that completely covers a woman's hair and also her chest. A simple scarf just doesn't do the trick.

Ha Ha, it took them 1,400 years to become aware. Your grabbing at the air.

No, I'm not grabbing at the air. And as we both know, Islam was not brought here by prophet Muhammad, nor any of his companions 1400 years ago. Rather it wasn't until the 13th century that muslim traders began to spread islam in and around Indonesia and it took hundreds of years before Islam became the dominant religion in Java and Sumatra. These 'first' muslims were traders, certainly no scholars who were sent here with a mission. They taught their own understanding of the Quranic teachings to the local people, not rarely using cultural assimilation. The latter is still visible today with for instance many indonesian muslims celebrating holidays and other special days that are unknown to Arabic muslims in the Middle East, the Abangan and Kejawen.
So the source of their understanding of islam came from traders, only very few, if any, Indonesian converts went to the ME to learn about their religion and the cultural assimilation blended islamic teachings with local customs. It is obvious that this type of islam (including it's customs and habits related to clothing) was different from the original teachings that were taught by prophet Muhammed hundreds of years earlier. After it's independence under Suharto's regime freedom of religion was repressed and parties and movements were closely supervised by the government. 60 years ago, where would you go as a (young) muslim woman to learn about your religion? Nowhere probably as many were expected to get married as teenagers. These women knew very little about islam and they could only act upon that little bit of knowledge of islam that they had. And most of them knew next to nothing about the islamic rulings concerning hijabs (to name just one thing).Suharto resigned in 1998 and since then there has been more freedom for religious movements to convey their message and more and more young Indonesians left for the Middle East to learn about their religion.
These Indonesians who came back from their studies in the ME and, of course, also the internet have been the primary source for many indonesian Muslims for knowledge about islam.

I just believe that the current trend in hijab wearing was from influances from somewhere.

If you look at the current trend in hijab wearing in Indonesia, you'll see that it is now more fashionable than ever. And maybe more fashionable than anywhere else in the world. Most models are nothing like the 'boring, black original' ME hijab. And because many models are fashionable, people feel more comfortable wearing them. Including artis-artis who are role models to many.

I asked why a different head covering wasn't incorporated to fit more with the local cultures instead of adopting a ME style.

Why would a muslim woman want to fit other cultures into her clothing than the culture she associates herself most with (islamic culture)? And what culture do you want to fit the 'Indonesian' jilbab in? Hindu type with a Vishnu print and a touch of animism? If it still has to fulfill the requirements of a jilbab, what is it ging to look like?
If the ME-style jilbab doesn't fit the tropical climate, why do you care? And...most jilbabs that I see are not even close to ME-style. Apart from the Louis Vuitton ones, of course.

Indonesia isn't the ME and the current hijab trend in Indonesia is in it's infancy compared to the time Islam has been in existence in Indonesia, so, what started it? Some say because they are now influanced to better follow their religion. So be it. Who brought that message to them or did there come a mass enlightening from the heavans? Being still new, it had to come from somewhere. It seems no one actually wants to address that question except to apply faith to it.

Hopefully your questions have been addressed now...

 

[Pimpin]

I think most Westerners know fully well the hijab plays little into the social behavior of the wearer. I think it's more the picture of what Indonesians want you to think. It is Indonesians who think that their daughters are protected from harm wearing the hijab but in reality, it does nothing but make them sweat more and their hair fall out prematuraly. The hijab in Indonesia and other parts of SE Asia is an Islamic joke and a form of supression for Women.

Sure you did. ISIS says god commands them to chop off heads. I guess those rolling heads made a choice. I guess because a terrorist makes a claim they are following god's will their actions are correct. Maybe you get your guidence from a religious text that was written by men after the fact. Pick a religion. Perhaps god just sat you down and explained everything to you so you no longer need to blindly accept what is put before you as fact.

What I responded to was regarding Indonesian husbands because the context was regarding them, not ISIS husbands threatening to chop off their wives heads. Loosely quoted you said, "husbands commanding their wives to wear it". You never mentioned under the duress of losing their head, ISIS or any other kind of husband commanded it.

Please explain how the hijab is an "Islamic joke".

 

[Pimpin]

What is not hard to see is that no one including you would ever question as to why these things started here or what the influence may have been.

Nobody? Ever? Just you?

 

[Daniel50]

A brief history/overview and some thoughts/questions.

https://www.facinghistory.org/civic-dilemmas/brief-history-veil-islam

 

[fastpitch17]

Hopefully your questions have been addressed now...

Thank you for your detailed description. With all this scholarly back and forth I would guess it by males to then explain to all in Indonesia. The dominate in the Muslim world. With the number of schools in Indonesia supported and financed by Saudi Arabia, is it safe to say that many of the travelling scholars were educated in Saudi Arabia under their Islamic ideas?

Why would I want any other religious or cultural garb for an Indonesian Muslin? I don't remember saying that. Only that the fashion could have followed a more culturally related path. Whatever that may be. If a Muslim girl wears it of her own free will without influance from another, that's her thing. Unfortunately, so many do not wear them by their own choosing. I think that is unfortunate.

 

[fastpitch17]

If you look at the current trend in hijab wearing in Indonesia, you'll see that it is now more fashionable than ever. And maybe more fashionable than anywhere else in the world. Most models are nothing like the 'boring, black original' ME hijab. And because many models are fashionable, people feel more comfortable wearing them. Including artis-artis who are role models to many.

Well Pak Tani, I would have to disagree with this in partial. I know personally many artist and celebrities by being family members or professional associates of them. I have met many others at various functions I have been dragged screaming to attend. Many of the publicly wearing their fancy hijabs do it for publicity sake. Many would prefer to never wear them but their adoring fans would be shoked to see them without. Many only wear them in a formal or stage setting and not even when out in public. Some never wear them. Especially band members. I do have one family member that is pretty much considered the spokesmodel for all hijab wearing girls that is very popular in TV and movies. She is one that never removes it but at the same time, rakes in a fortune for doing so on even the world stage.

 

[fastpitch17]

What I responded to was regarding Indonesian husbands because the context was regarding them, not ISIS husbands threatening to chop off their wives heads. Loosely quoted you said, "husbands commanding their wives to wear it". You never mentioned under the duress of losing their head, ISIS or any other kind of husband commanded it.

Please explain how the hijab is an "Islamic joke".

It was a comparison in having a choice. I never mentioned a wife of an ISIS member, you did. I doubt ISIS would give out too many choices. The thing is, you call it a choice when a husband instructs a wife to wear it. I can't seem to find were the choice comes from unless you are referring to a choice or else.
Explain? I think I already did.

 

[fastpitch17]

Oh, William King. I really don't care if you red X every single one of my post like you're doing. Have a wonderful time at it. Of course, if you are so ass hurt, why not just report me for hurting your feelings or something.

 

[Pimpin]

It was a comparison in having a choice. I never mentioned a wife of an ISIS member, you did. I doubt ISIS would give out too many choices. The thing is, you call it a choice when a husband instructs a wife to wear it. I can't seem to find were the choice comes from unless you are referring to a choice or else.
Explain? I think I already did.

Ok I reread what you wrote and I see what you meant now. My appologies

She could refuse to wear it. She could leave him. She could divorce him. She could kill him. She could wear it around him and who he knows only. She could convert to another religion. Choices.

I must have missed your explanation why the hijab is an Islamic joke. Mind quoting your explanation or summing up with a brief message?

 

[Pak Tani]

With the number of schools in Indonesia supported and financed by Saudi Arabia, is it safe to say that many of the travelling scholars were educated in Saudi Arabia under their Islamic ideas?

Yes, I think so. I have family members who studied at Al-Azhar in Egypt, but in many islamic rulings they are not so strict as the people I know who studied in Saudi Arabia and Yemen. And even some family members who have studied in Saudi Arabia, but under soofee shaykhs, are not so strict with many rulings. In my opinion, it's not the soofee's from the ME who have changed much about islamic society here in Indonesia the recent decades. I think it has been the salafy school of thought that has been more or less appealing to quite a few Indonesians.

 

[fastpitch17]

Thank you William King, those red X's are rather colorful. You may want to ad some Os. Kisses are nicer when they come with hugs.

 

[rabbit_39]

Sure, in the kampungs it's probably more likely for the men to push their will, but I think peer pressure is a better predictor. Like I said, most Indonesians are big about fitting in and hate being the odd man (or woman) out. My mom doesn't give a flying fudge about what my dad thinks about the way she dresses, but if all her lady friends in the neighborhood decide to dress in a certain way, she would reluctantly follow suit. This includes signing up for a group t-shirt and other group stuff.

I'm glad you said more likely. I know many women who don't wear the hijab but they're still oppressed by the husbands. On the weekends they have to clean uthe house and do laundry, etc. Why don't they get a maid you say? The husband don't want to eat food cooked by anyone else except his wife and his mother (liar, he eats at restaurants). The husband don't want to wear clothes laundered and ironed by other people. Shrug... People I tell you.

 

[Nimbus]

I'm glad you said more likely. I know many women who don't wear the hijab but they're still oppressed by the husbands. On the weekends they have to clean uthe house and do laundry, etc. Why don't they get a maid you say? The husband don't want to eat food cooked by anyone else except his wife and his mother (liar, he eats at restaurants). The husband don't want to wear clothes laundered and ironed by other people. Shrug... People I tell you.

I have heard of Indonesian husbands with that attitude, although I'm fortunate enough to not know any personally. Something tells me that I probably won't get along with them.

To me, division of labor can be fair. If I work full time and my wife works part time, then it's not unreasonable to expect her to do a bigger chunk of household chores. If the wife doesn't work outside the house, then giving me 50% of the chores after I work 8 hours a day is not agreeable. However, if we both work full time, then splitting the chores evenly is fine.

 

[Davita]

Division of labor in our marriage is easily defined.
My wife cannot stand me in HER kitchen making it messy...so I stay on MY recliner and labor with the chair handle and TV remote....

 

[mauricio]

The same can be said about millions of Indonesians who are now wearing jeans and t-shirts. Does that bother you also? Societies change, they always have and they always will.

You missed the point, once an Indonesian woman starts wearing hijab, she can forget about her own culture & traditions forever (at least, the way she dress). However she try to wear traditional dress according to local customs, it will never be authentic with hijab.

I find this Quora post (pasted below) interesting https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-th...ing-local-customs-to-decline/answers/42982383

Is it true that Arabization is increasing in Indonesia and causing local customs to decline?

Anonymous
Updated Apr 29
75 Upvotes

Pretty woman with long hair riding the “lion” during Kirab Budaya (Cultural Carnival) in Magelang.

Another pretty woman with beautiful hair and exposed shoulder (as per tradition).

Arabization is adultering indigenous culture, see this woman above, she was wearing hijab covering her hair, ears, neck, shoulder and arms.

This one (above) too.

The point is, once a woman starts wearing hijab, she cannot wear her traditional dress anymore. Why? How can it authentic without the hairdo and the exposed shoulder/arms? And when she gets married, she cannot be dressed traditionally like this lucky bride below.

Notice the traditional make-up which includes black painted designs on the forehead, hairstyle and headdress… she’s a beauty.

If Arabization continues, local customs, culture and traditions will disappear or be changed forever.

2.1k Views · 75 Upvotes