Thousands of Indonesian Students become Singaporean Citizen. Is it a brain drain ??

[pantaiema]

Why I Gave Up My Indonesian Citizenship to Become a Singaporean Citizen ?

Every year, around 1,000 Indonesian citizens move to become Singaporean citizens.
Based on this news, the Singaporean government also monitor talented Indonesian students and may award them scholarships to study in Singapore. Upon completing their studies, they are required to work for the Singaporean government and may later be offered the opportunity to become Singaporean citizens.

 

[Samoerai]

Talking about "Young Illiberal Progressives (YIPS)"

These young people, post-pandemische Gen Z generation, don't have the skills to debate, they don't have the skills to disagree and engage. Because they have not been educated, especially because they have not been to 'offline' university anymore and therefore have not learned to have those kinds of debates.

The Daily Mail writes that Channel 4 already conducted research last year which showed that these young people are less tolerant of the opinions of others than their parents or grandparents. They could therefore be called 'less liberal', the researchers write. They call this phenomenon 'the rise of the Young Illiberal Progressives' or 'Yips'. What annoys employers is 'unprofessional behavior'. Almost half of managers believe that these employees use far too many abbreviations or all kinds of buzzwords towards colleagues and customers.

Is this kind of behavior also visible in Indonesia? I know for a fact that particularly on Fridays, when apparently the boss / manager is not at the office, many workers leave the office early to go to the malls.

 

[MamangDudul]

Talking about "Young Illiberal Progressives (YIPS)"

These young people, post-pandemische Gen Z generation, don't have the skills to debate, they don't have the skills to disagree and engage. Because they have not been educated, especially because they have not been to 'offline' university anymore and therefore have not learned to have those kinds of debates.

The Daily Mail writes that Channel 4 already conducted research last year which showed that these young people are less tolerant of the opinions of others than their parents or grandparents. They could therefore be called 'less liberal', the researchers write. They call this phenomenon 'the rise of the Young Illiberal Progressives' or 'Yips'. What annoys employers is 'unprofessional behavior'. Almost half of managers believe that these employees use far too many abbreviations or all kinds of buzzwords towards colleagues and customers.

Is this kind of behavior also visible in Indonesia? I know for a fact that particularly on Fridays, when apparently the boss / manager is not at the office, many workers leave the office early to go to the malls.

It's indeed concerning and at least from my experience I would tend to believe it. During the pandemic (even before it already but the pandemic multiplied it) many people became more like what these articles describe. The youth or even younger people grew up in these times and naturally it will have a big influence on them.
Then again, Iam not surprised about it. They still think they are liberal and tolerant, but in reality only to what deserves to be in their liberal and tolerant world view. Actually being less liberal and tolerant is the new liberal. Or call it selective tolerance or whatever.

Sure, Indonesia always had its fair share of problems, but I would say the older generations were indeed more tolerant.

 

[pantaiema]

Is this kind of behavior also visible in Indonesia? I know for a fact that particularly on Fridays, when apparently the boss / manager is not at the office, many workers leave the office early to go to the malls.

If you are referring to a such lifestyle, Indonesian civil servants and employees of state-owned enterprises in Indonesia have long been associated with this way of life, dating back to previous generations. You would often observe some of them going to shopping malls or taking their wives to the market for daily shopping. It is like a sub culture among the civil servants. so it is difficult to change. However, it appears that this trend has started to reverse.

As per our previous discussion, it is very difficult for Indonesian civil servants and state-owned employees to be terminated from their positions, unless they have engaged in gross misconduct that has come to public attention.

 

[Samoerai]

If you are referring to a such lifestyle, Indonesian civil servants and employees of state-owned enterprises in Indonesia have long been associated with this way of life, dating back to previous generations. You would often observe some of them going to shopping malls or taking their wives to the market for daily shopping. It is like a sub culture among the civil servants. so it is difficult to change. However, it appears that this trend has started to reverse.

As per our previous discussion, it is very difficult for Indonesian civil servants and state-owned employees to be terminated from their positions, unless they have engaged in gross misconduct that has come to public attention.

Interesting.
Maybe "illiberal" in YIPS is a bit off in the formentioned article. Employers just should named them "unprofessional" .. Young Unprofessional Workers (YUW). But that doesn't sounds good.

 

[Bob]

Interesting.
Maybe "illiberal" in YIPS is a bit off in the formentioned article. Employers just should named them "unprofessional" .. Young Unprofessional Workers (YUW). But that doesn't sounds good.

Illiberal is accurate in that they aren't open to other views. It's not linked to professionalism.

 

[Samoerai]

Today in the newspaper 'belanda' ... because academic year starts ....

The new guard international students is eager to start. A considerable number comes from outside the EU, around 20,000 boys and girls. The expectation is that in the end about 20,000 study permits will be issued, especially to Chinese, Indian, American, Turkish and Indonesian students.

The Chinese Yiqing wanted to go to Amsterdam for his IT study at all costs: “I know I will come from far, but here are the best teachers. And it is also a top spot to continue to work after your studies."His girlfriend Yuxin nods. She will soon start a study at the UvA. "I hope to be able to hang in The Hague - the international capital of law."

The Indonesian Ryan has to return from his home country. "They give me a grant to partly cover the high costs. As a result, after my diploma I just have to work again in Indonesia. That is a bit disappointing, I would see myself staying for a while. You have a beautiful country. ”

Biasnanya .. 37% of these students stay in NL: Of the non-EU students, five years after graduation, 37.6 percent are still in the Netherlands, according to Nuffic.

 

[pantaiema]

Today in the newspaper 'belanda' ... because academic year starts ....

The new guard international students is eager to start. A considerable number comes from outside the EU, around 20,000 boys and girls. The expectation is that in the end about 20,000 study permits will be issued, especially to Chinese, Indian, American, Turkish and Indonesian students.

The Chinese Yiqing wanted to go to Amsterdam for his IT study at all costs: “I know I will come from far, but here are the best teachers. And it is also a top spot to continue to work after your studies."His girlfriend Yuxin nods. She will soon start a study at the UvA. "I hope to be able to hang in The Hague - the international capital of law."

The Indonesian Ryan has to return from his home country. "They give me a grant to partly cover the high costs. As a result, after my diploma I just have to work again in Indonesia. That is a bit disappointing, I would see myself staying for a while. You have a beautiful country. ”

Biasnanya .. 37% of these students stay in NL: Of the non-EU students, five years after graduation, 37.6 percent are still in the Netherlands, according to Nuffic.

To the best of my knowledge, Nuffic manages funded scholarships provided by the Dutch International Fund or other international non-profit organizations in the Netherland. These scholarships typically cover both tuition fees and living expenses, so FULLY funded scholarship. Only a small percentage are partially funded scholarships. In Indonesia, the scholarships managed by Nuffic for Indonesian People are primarily under the StuNed program (Studeren in Nederland), which is fully funded (not partial) and aims to promote international development by advancing growth in the recipients' home countries. Recipients of these scholarships are usually required to return to their home countries to contribute to their development. It could be easily seen that the Dutch have interest for development of their former largest colony to be used as a success story.

https://www.nuffic.nl/sites/default/files/2023-05/ToR%20of%20Meta%20Evaluation%20StuNed.pdf

So, Ryan's statement about partially funded scholarships and the possibility of staying in the Netherlands is not accurate, which is often the case when someone is speaking from a personal perspective and interest.

Each year, the Dutch government offers around 100-200 scholarships to talented Indonesian students through the StuNed program to study in the Netherlands. Additionally, there is the LPDP-Netherlands Joint Scholarship Programme, which is co-funded by the Dutch and Indonesian governments.

The Netherlands is among the leading countries in terms of international development funding as a percentage of GDP. However, it is not the only country offering fully funded scholarships to talented Indonesian students. Other countries such as Australia, Japan, Germany, UK, China as well as other developed nations, also provide such scholarships each year. Indonesian government itself are offering around 7,000 each year fully funded scholarship the so called LPDP to talented Indonesian Students. Also this LPDP scholarship will require them to go back to Indonesia.

 

[Samoerai]

Also in the newspaper ...

Australia will allow fewer foreign students next year. With this measure, the country tries to get a grip on record migration and rising rental prices, reports Reuters news agency. From 2025, only 270,000 foreign students are welcome every year, which means a deducting more than 50,000 students.

According to Australian universities, the ceiling for foreign students is a loss. International students contributed 32.5 billion Australian dollars (converted around € 19.74 billion) to the Australian economy in 2023. This makes international education the largest service export product in the country.

In an attempt to limit migration, the government already doubled the visa costs for foreign students last month. She also promised to tackle mistakes/loopholes in the law that enabled students to extend their stay several times.

Australia, a country with more than 26 million inhabitants, currently houses 717,000 international students.

 

[Pak Tani]

Also in the newspaper ...

Australia will allow fewer foreign students next year. With this measure, the country tries to get a grip on record migration and rising rental prices, reports Reuters news agency. From 2025, only 270,000 foreign students are welcome every year, which means a deducting more than 50,000 students.

According to Australian universities, the ceiling for foreign students is a loss. International students contributed 32.5 billion Australian dollars (converted around € 19.74 billion) to the Australian economy in 2023. This makes international education the largest service export product in the country.

In an attempt to limit migration, the government already doubled the visa costs for foreign students last month. She also promised to tackle mistakes/loopholes in the law that enabled students to extend their stay several times.

Australia, a country with more than 26 million inhabitants, currently houses 717,000 international students.

It feels as if this is not the whole story. These migrants (university students) are spending billions and billions of Dollars in Australia and when their courses are finished, most of them leave the country again. Around 20% decide to stay, but these are young and highly educated people. Are these the migrants 'they are trying to get a grip on'? If they stay, they will likely benefit the economy even more with high-income jobs, perhaps having offspring, which is not bad since the average Australian woman gives birth to 1,6 children.
That leaves us with the increasing rental prices. If these prices increase due to popular demand, can they not use some of the billions of dollars foreign students spend to build dorms and other affordable housing?

 

[Samoerai]

If they stay, they will likely benefit the economy even more with high-income jobs, perhaps having offspring, which is not bad since the average Australian woman gives birth to 1,6 children.

Huh, look at the title of this thread ... those kids need to go back to their own country and bring the economy to a higher level. Or run for president of Indonesia ...

 

[harryopal1]

It feels as if this is not the whole story. These migrants (university students) are spending billions and billions of Dollars in Australia and when their courses are finished, most of them leave the country again. Around 20% decide to stay, but these are young and highly educated people. Are these the migrants 'they are trying to get a grip on'? If they stay, they will likely benefit the economy even more with high-income jobs, perhaps having offspring, which is not bad since the average Australian woman gives birth to 1,6 children.
That leaves us with the increasing rental prices. If these prices increase due to popular demand, can they not use some of the billions of dollars foreign students spend to build dorms and other affordable housing?

Affordable accommodation is at a crisis point in Australia but neither state governments nor the Federal government has really grasped how serious this has become. Related to this is the impact of ever increasing cost of living so that thousands of middle class people are being pushed into poverty and those already in poverty being pushed into homelessness. The huge number of international students competing for accommodation is exacerbating these problems. A state of emergency needs to be declared and a massive attempt made to provide innovative responses to deal with these issues. Meanwhile we have seen local council authorities lacking humanity by ordering people in temporary accommodation to leave their shelters because they do not measure up to standing rules of accommodation requirements. As a nation Australian is a long way from confronting these realities with talk of traditional housing to be built and which will not have an impact for some years. You might say that international students missing out on education at Australian institutions are "collateral damage."

 

[fastpitch17]

Affordable accommodation is at a crisis point in Australia but neither state governments nor the Federal government has really grasped how serious this has become. Related to this is the impact of ever increasing cost of living so that thousands of middle class people are being pushed into poverty and those already in poverty being pushed into homelessness. The huge number of international students competing for accommodation is exacerbating these problems. A state of emergency needs to be declared and a massive attempt made to provide innovative responses to deal with these issues. Meanwhile we have seen local council authorities lacking humanity by ordering people in temporary accommodation to leave their shelters because they do not measure up to standing rules of accommodation requirements. As a nation Australian is a long way from confronting these realities with talk of traditional housing to be built and which will not have an impact for some years. You might say that international students missing out on education at Australian institutions are "collateral damage."

Do not the vast majority of foreign students actually live in dorms? Students and their families would probably not be able to afford off campus housing except as larger groups pooling their rent money.

 

[harryopal1]

Do not the vast majority of foreign students actually live in dorms? Students and their families would probably not be able to afford off campus housing except as larger groups pooling their rent money.

Less than 30% in dormitories. The foreign student competition for rentals is seen as a significant factor in the present inflationary climate. Unfortunately there have been many foreign investors buying properties in Australia and many remaining empty in enough numbers that government is looking at posing a tax on empty properties.

 

[fastpitch17]

Less than 30% in dormitories. The foreign student competition for rentals is seen as a significant factor in the present inflationary climate. Unfortunately there have been many foreign investors buying properties in Australia and many remaining empty in enough numbers that government is looking at posing a tax on empty properties.

Would not, due to cost, students rent a single property as a group? Just hard to get my brain around foreign students casing a housing problem like this.

As for empty houses, I can see that causing problems if these empty houses are not available for sale or rent.

Indonesia should look at penalizing those who have empty property for extended periods of time. There are a lot of empty houses available but builders keep on building new and the rental or sale prices of the empty houses keeps going up.

 

[harryopal1]

Would not, due to cost, students rent a single property as a group? Just hard to get my brain around foreign students casing a housing problem like this.

As for empty houses, I can see that causing problems if these empty houses are not available for sale or rent.

Indonesia should look at penalizing those who have empty property for extended periods of time. There are a lot of empty houses available but builders keep on building new and the rental or sale prices of the empty houses keeps going up.

It is not suggested foreign students are the main cause for the rental crisis. There are students who get together sharing houses or apartments but there are many wealthy families providing their student children with means to rent their own apartments or houses. The origins of the problem relate to government in Australia offering what was called "negative gearing" and a tax break for those with money buying multiple properties. For several decades this has seen prices for housing and units pushing up. AirBnB and other similar outfits allowing short term rental for tourist has also subtracted from long term rental availability. So despite thousands of empty properties there is a shortage of supply. Reducing the number of foreign students is seen as one way of freeing up rental availability and taxing owners of empty properties is another. The Federal government is talking of building many thousands of more houses but it will take years before this program begins to affect the market. Meanwhile, more poorer people struggle to make ends meet with ever increasing rental hikes and more people living in cars, vans and tents along with other homeless who sleep on the city streets.

 

[Hawk256]

Would not, due to cost, students rent a single property as a group? Just hard to get my brain around foreign students casing a housing problem like this.

As for empty houses, I can see that causing problems if these empty houses are not available for sale or rent.

Indonesia should look at penalizing those who have empty property for extended periods of time. There are a lot of empty houses available but builders keep on building new and the rental or sale prices of the empty houses keeps going up.

I have always been of the opinion that if someone owns something and doesn't want to use it they should be free to do so. How would you justfy taxing of fining someone for owning an empty house when in a lot of these cases the house is mostly worthless and they are just sitting on the property waiting for the value to go up some more. In some cases the houses might not even be livable. What about empty land? Where do you draw the line?

 

[harryopal1]

I have always been of the opinion that if someone owns something and doesn't want to use it they should be free to do so. How would you justfy taxing of fining someone for owning an empty house when in a lot of these cases the house is mostly worthless and they are just sitting on the property waiting for the value to go up some more. In some cases the houses might not even be livable. What about empty land? Where do you draw the line?

I think the concern in Aus is the many new investment apartments and houses bought by overseas buyers that are just left sitting as an asset.

 

[john madden]

I have always been of the opinion that if someone owns something and doesn't want to use it they should be free to do so. How would you justfy taxing of fining someone for owning an empty house when in a lot of these cases the house is mostly worthless and they are just sitting on the property waiting for the value to go up some more. In some cases the houses might not even be livable. What about empty land? Where do you draw the line?

There's no such thing as a worthless house/apartment in Australia these days. The crummiest dump in b## f### nowhere will cost $300k, and anything barely liveable in a regional or capital city will cost north of $500k.

 

[Hawk256]

There's no such thing as a worthless house/apartment in Australia these days. The crummiest dump in b## f### nowhere will cost $300k, and anything barely liveable in a regional or capital city will cost north of $500k.

But the vaue is in the land, not a structure that is not fit for habitation. I don't know Australia but other countries have plenty of them. My brother has one in the US. The house is so bad that an insurace company won't even insure it and it's litterly not sound enough for someone to actually live in. The structure is worthless but the land on the other hand... He has been watching the area develop and has enough land for at least 3 houses to be built. What little he put in the property 20 years ago will pay off well for him one day.