When families blame the government...

[Bad_azz]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37198168

Is it just me?

When families blame the government for not putting their parents/grandparents in the same place together... sad.
It annoys me that older people are seen as something to be dispensed of and cared for by others.

I feel extremely sad for the couple who are apart.
BUT I want to ask the family involved- don't you have a spare room? Is there no home support? Why is a government care-home the only viable option?

Seems there is way too much oh I couldn't possibly look after them, they need specialist care & I work and I'm not confident & it isn't my responsibility mentality out there.

I spent a decade of my life caring for other people's grannies and gramps, mums and dads... I have heard just about every reason there is - it saddens me that once we start to lose our usefulness we get shove in a hole/ swept under the carpet and pretty much forgotten about.
So I kinda like the Indonesian way (certainly from my own experience/observations) where elders are revered and respected, cared for in the family home and very much an integral part of the family.

 

[Smallworld]

Instead of blaming government for not taking care of grandparents I would blame their children. Family comes first when it is about helping each other, then friends (if they can), then private care (if we can afford it) at the end government.

It makes me sick and super sad when I have seen all those houses for older people and 'peaceful retirement' places in UK. How their children come once a month to visit their grandparents.
Some may have more frequent visits or may have none.

I may sound weird but those times when 3 generations could live under one roof in my opinion was the best solution for taking care of this sort of problem. But now in 'modern times' we have expectations to have our own living place often with massive mortgage for 20 or more years. Because we may not get along with in-laws/parents if we decide to live with them.

 

[Davita]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37198168

Is it just me?

When families blame the government for not putting their parents/grandparents in the same place together... sad.
It annoys me that older people are seen as something to be dispensed of and cared for by others.

I feel extremely sad for the couple who are apart.
BUT I want to ask the family involved- don't you have a spare room? Is there no home support? Why is a government care-home the only viable option?

Seems there is way too much oh I couldn't possibly look after them, they need specialist care & I work and I'm not confident & it isn't my responsibility mentality out there.

I spent a decade of my life caring for other people's grannies and gramps, mums and dads... I have heard just about every reason there is - it saddens me that once we start to lose our usefulness we get shove in a hole/ swept under the carpet and pretty much forgotten about.
So I kinda like the Indonesian way (certainly from my own experience/observations) where elders are revered and respected, cared for in the family home and very much an integral part of the family.

Well said BA...that's why I love my in-law Indonesian family much more than I did my own. They are family and support each other, even when sometimes they disagree. We have family gatherings very often, especially at Xmas, so all the kids (there's many) are inspired to know who they are and how they are related.
We have one of the wives who has become a real pious Muslim and defers to join in anything Christian but we persevere and welcome her at every opportunity.

Mind you, i'm pushing 80 but still surviving well without help.

My daughter (from a previous marriage) and her husband have 2 teenagers (my grandsons). I invited them to Bali recently just so those kids know they have a grandpa...on leaving they said "Can we return without our stern mum....we like you better?" I told them....next time bring your girl friends.
Also, they drink and love sports...I'm thinking of giving them their inheritance now to build a hut for me down the bottom of their garden and sit with them chatting sports and sluggin' a 'coldie' or three. On 2nd thought maybe that wont work as my ex (their grandma) also lives with them.

Which begs the old saying...'If I knew I'd like the grand-kids this much.....I would've had them first.'

 

[fastpitch17]

In the US over the past 20 years there has been an active move to make retirement living just that, livable. From retirement apartments where the more mature residents can still take care of themselves to semi care facilities where some need some aid or at least looked in upon from trained staff, to full care operations where while they still stay in apartment like furnished places, they have full time care professionals available. The retirement facilities do offer on premise entertainment and activities for those that can't or wish not to go out. They also have regular activities that take place outside the retirement facilities for those that want to get away. All encourage socialization among each resident and outside if possible. Some offer monthly rent payments and others can be more steep in taking all things like Social Security and or Pension Payments.

One elderly friend of ours lives in a self care apartment owned by a local hospital. She pays $500.00 per month plus utilities, phone, and TV for a single bedroom furnished apartment. Everything is taken care of by full time staff and maintenance people. My step father stayed in a limited care facility Studio type apartment for 12 years at a facility that offered daily excursions to different places. He also had access to a large social setting garden area. He was blind so they catered to his disabilities so he very much enjoyed life while it was in him. His monthly rent was $700.00 per month all included.

Yes, there are still some of those sit around and do nothing all day facilities but they are becoming fewer and fewer. They are normally in some private house where the elderly have no family and just want to stay close to their old neighborhoods. States have cracked down on many facilities and cleaned them up or outright close them. Reports of abuse of the elderly is taken very seriously by Local and State social departments and are looked into immediately.

Why not the children take them in? Many times they do but for many that don't, it is the parent themselves that refuse. I think this is because children in the US are taught at an early age on that they need to be independent. The elderly see themselves as a burden to that Independence they instilled in their children. My step father would hear none of it when offered to stay with his daughter or my sister, his step daughter. They were the only two that still lived fairly close to him with his own daughter being the closest.

 

[Bad_azz]

I am sure the $500 a month would be better off going in to the family pot.
I would think it is much healthier psychologically to be in the midst of the chaos of family life, being stimulated by the noise and attention of kids, being involved instead of cast aside. ow lonely must these people feel- even if THEY are the ones who said NO, I don't want to be a burden- sometime nope means yes- & they are looking for the response: "you could never be a burden- you are my *insert relationship here* "

** However I am fully aware there are relationships where parents / siblings just do not get along at all or have a history of abuse or just disdain. It can't work for everyone - and to have good caring kids you have to invest some good caring parent skills in there too.

If you are a shit mum/dad don't expect your kids to embrace you and welcome you in... unless you can dangle a massive financial reward their way.

 

[fastpitch17]

I am sure the $500 a month would be better off going in to the family pot.
I would think it is much healthier psychologically to be in the midst of the chaos of family life, being stimulated by the noise and attention of kids, being involved instead of cast aside. ow lonely must these people feel- even if THEY are the ones who said NO, I don't want to be a burden- sometime nope means yes- & they are looking for the response: "you could never be a burden- you are my *insert relationship here* "

** However I am fully aware there are relationships where parents / siblings just do not get along at all or have a history of abuse or just disdain. It can't work for everyone - and to have good caring kids you have to invest some good caring parent skills in there too.

If you are a shit mum/dad don't expect your kids to embrace you and welcome you in... unless you can dangle a massive financial reward their way.

Actually, the friend who spends the 500 a month is quite happy. You see, she feels that by living with Family she would suddenly have to start relying on others when she still is fully capable of taking care of herself. All her 6 children live outside her area so removing her would take her away from lifelong friends that are still around. Plus, her family makes sure they stay in her life and she in theirs. Those that are only a couple hundred miles away make sure they visit every month and she spends a couple weeks with them every year so she can experience the grandchildren. The other may only visit once a year but from time to time if one of the closer ones is traveling to see a farther away one she is invited to come along. There isn't a week that goes by that she doesn't receive a call from all of her children no matter where they are or what they are involved with. Every Christmas is a family reunion in her city where they were all born. She is quite happy. If for some reason she becomes unable to take care of herself then I am sure she will elect to move in with one of her children. 500 dollars would be nothing for any of her children and knowing them, not a single one would take it if offered.

I'll tell you a story of the Father in this family to give you some insight into them. He had a side big yard and put in a swing set. His kids and all their friends would come there and hang out in the yard, swinging and socializing. This went on even after the kids got older. The swing set while used less, was still the gathering area. The grass under the swing set was long worn off but the rest of the grass in the yard was kept nice and neat. One day another neighbor was walking by and seen this father out in his yard minding the grass that was there. The other neighbor told him, "if you got rid of that old swing set you would have a nice yard." The father looked at him and said' "perhaps, but I find it more enjoyable to be raising kids then grass." Nothing was ever mentioned again. That is how that family works. Family is always first and foremost. Thinking someone knows better what they need or want is pretty silly.

 

[Scooterindo]

I hope I die before I get old - My Generation by the who 1965 sung by Roger Daultry now aged 73 :lol:

 

[jstar]

I agree with you B_a that those cultures that take care of the elderly and parents and still live together, not only in Asia but also southern Europe for instance, are to be admired for that.

Having said that, I can not imagine and cringe at the thought of taking my parents with me at home. And that while they still are pretty okay. A kangaroo housing could be a solution perhaps.

Also, the push of western governments to have elderly stay with their children and have been taken care of by their offspring, is by no means a charitable or humanitarian effort. They just want to lower the expenditures and be able to deal with the aging population.

 

[Scooterindo]

Here's a horror story for you.

The father of my dads wife was a widower for a few years after losing his wife to cancer, however being ex RAF he was fiercely independent and wouldn't accept the offer to move in with my father and his wife. He owned his own home which had been the family home for over 50 years as you can imagine it held a lot of memories for him there. He was an "old skool" gentleman and was never seen without a shirt and tie, always out in the garden looking after the place which was a big 4 bedroom mock Tudor type house with a huge front and rear garden, easily worth well over a million quid on todays property market.

All went well for a few years until my step mum started to notice her dad was becoming forgetful about things like not closing the front door at night, leaving the gas on, taps running, and that sort of thing. The situation steadily became worse until it was clear that her father, now well into his late 80s was suffering from Alzheimer's and becoming more unable to care for himself.

Eventually things become worse until he wandered off one day (wearing only his pajamas) in the middle of November he was eventually found by the police at the local school at 10.30pm to pick my step mum up and "take her home for tea", he was so confused he had totally lost track of time and began to have trouble remembering what year it was, let alone what day. He did have a home help but it was finally decided by the local authorities after an assessment that he would have to have to go into care as he was becoming a danger to himself. To fund the astronomical cost of a care home placement his house was auctioned off by the council for way less than the market value and he was placed into a local care home that was owned by a Pakistani business man (If you think that was racist I don't fucking care) where he received substandard care at 2400 quid a week for the next few years. My parents were not allowed to be involved in the sale of the house although they were given a short time to clear the house - devastating for my step mum as it was her childhood home. Most of the furniture and stuff had to be given to charity shops due to the short time available.

As you can imagine my step mum was in hell seeing both her dad slipping further and further away and having to constantly fight to get things sorted out for him like decent hot food, daily baths, clean bedding and half decent standards of hygiene. The place (according to my dad) was a shit hole that was staffed by immigrants that were all paid minimum wage and barely spoke English. There was constant fights with the staff and management to ensure that he was actually fed and bathed daily. Obviously he was in a confused state and claimed he didn't want a shower or bath or wasn't hungry (food was shit apparently) and with this the staff wouldn't bother with him and he would remain hungry and dirty for a few days until my dad and step mum would go and visit and the cycle of complaints would start all over again. By this stage it was clear that this so called care home for the elderly was nothing more than a money making entity for the owner who had a dozen of these so called care homes all taking referrals from local councils, run on a shoestring for maximum profit.

When my dad went up to see him on one occasion he was laying in bed covered in shit (literally) where he wasn't able to get to the toilet without assistance, it was pretty obvious from the state of him that he had been like this for a while. My father went mental at the staff who where clearly neglecting his father in law. Dad took him for a bath, stripped off the shit covered pajamas (they never bothered to even dress him after a while) and once naked his back was found to be covered in bruises. When questioned the staff said "he fell over a few days ago" however there was no official record of this fall and my step mum had not been informed. It was obvious to all that he had been beaten (unless he miraculously fell over backwards multiple times - bruises were of different degrees of fading) with this my dad and step mum went direct to the local council and made a formal complaint and requested him to be moved out of this place into a better one. Considering the circumstances and the fact that he was paying to be there it wasn't an unreasonable request.

The council just didn't give a fuck and refused to move him saying there were no alternatives and basically like it or lump it, when they said he would be better take him to live with them the council refused stating that he was under the "care" (what a fucking joke) of the local authority and they were not authorized to do that. They also received a letter from the lawyers of the management company that ran the home threatening them with legal action for making "unsubstantiated allegations of violence against their staff" to the council.

As you can imagine the stress on my step mum and my dad was immense, they were powerless to help him so resorted to taking him up decent food and ensuring that he was being cared for properly on a daily basis, effectively doing the job of the staff who seemed quite happy to let them do it. He eventually died about 4 months later aged 92. It eventually took another few months for the council to reimburse the balance from the sale of his home. Less this fee and that fee, administration and handling, and everything else they could charge (250 quid delivery charge to return his personal possessions from less than 6 miles away !!!) To add insult to injury the total received back from the council was just under 195,000 quid (his million quid house was sold for less than 675K) So not only did she lose her father under horrific circumstances she also lost most of the inheritance her father had worked his whole life to leave her and her sister.

So that's the sort of treatment you can expect in the UK if you serve your country in WW2 and work hard all your life. The council will fuck you out of what you've worked for and give it to some unscrupulous business entity that has latched onto "caring for the elderly" as a way of making obscene amounts of money out of local councils. This care home operates on exactly the same model as slum landlords do to DHSS tenants. Apparently if you're a council tenant and don't own a property or have any savings you get it all for free, which begs the question then what are the taxes that he (and everyone else) paid all his life actually for ??

What a shit way for such a hardworking proud gentleman to finish his days. A complete fucking disgrace.

 

[fastpitch17]

Scoot, that was horrible how he was treated by his own government. I am happy the US is nothing like that. The government doesn't think they own you when it comes to care.

 

[waarmstrong]

There are predatory assholes and insensitive, uncaring bureaucrats inhabiting most eldercare programs. I don't know much about the UK system, but in the USA the scenario described by Scoot does happen. Fortunately it is the exception and when abuse does come to light, the perpetrators are punished and often the facility loses its license.

What bothers me a bit is the search for blame if the care provided does not meet family expectations. Shortages are not uncommon in a system designed and sized to efficiently provide quality care to those elderly who need assisted living and/or medical services. I don't fault the family for complaining (That's the way things get changed for the better,) but I also don't fault the "system" for what seems to be careful management of a scarce resource. Hopefully a bed will soon become available so the couple can be together, but until then, they seem to be both well looked after, although separately, with the family filling in the gaps with visitations.

Different cultures look after the elderly and infirm in different ways. Would transplanting an Indonesian style family care at home take root in the USA? Actually its already here for those who want to go that route and have the means, geographic proximity and disposition. For most, public and private care facilities are the best option for a mobile society where offspring are likely spread over a continent. The best option for both the elderly and their offspring. Keep in mind, as well, that care at home by the family is the only viable option for most Indonesians. Blaming or finding fault by comparison doesn't seem well grounded in reality.

 

[Scooterindo]

From what I understand (and I may be wrong) was that proper purpose built care homes used to be owned and run by local authorities in the UK. These were well managed and run by carers that actually did care for their patients. However these were closed up and the properties sold off to generate revenue by the last Labour government and replaced by private contractors as a cost cutting exercise. As soon as you engage private contractors - it ceases to be about care but all about profit driven business, and therefore people are denied the chance to end their days with dignity and respect.

 

[waarmstrong]

From what I understand (and I may be wrong) was that proper purpose built care homes used to be owned and run by local authorities in the UK. These were well managed and run by carers that actually did care for their patients. However these were closed up and the properties sold off to generate revenue by the last Labour government and replaced by private contractors as a cost cutting exercise. As soon as you engage private contractors - it ceases to be about care but all about profit driven business, and therefore people are denied the chance to end their days with dignity and respect.

Sounds like something the Conservatives would do, but I could be wrong.

 

[Bad_azz]

Privatisation has had a massive impact on social care in the UK Scoot.
Your story is very sad and by no means unique.

There are certain precautions that can be taken and I urge ageing parents to consider them:
- gift your possessions to your kids/NOK- tie them up in a trust. *If your possessions finances have been gifted a set amount of years before you die- inheritance tax is moot. If you die before the time span is up then these gifts will be taxed - it used to be 7 years I think (for large amounts).

-Make a living will and appoint a legal guardian with power of attorney to make decisions re your care, should you become unable to make decisions in your own best interests. * be sure it is someone you trust not to abuse this power- I believe you can have more than one person- 3 is probably best so that there has to be some discussion about options- but I cannot recall the legalities in this.

-Spend the lot and have nothing - then the govt will provide you with a place to live and an income.

* Waarmie- yes the privatisation started to kick in in the 90's

 

[Bad_azz]

An interesting article:

https://www.theguardian.com/social-...k-more-about-the-privatisation-of-social-care

 

[waarmstrong]

What stood out for me was that the Canadian couple seemed to be more into making their somewhat dubious point at the expense of their aging, infirm parents. They ignored options that would have reunited their parents quickly in favor of standing on a soap box.

 

[Anglian]

I used to live on the Borders of Dorset and Hamshire, many local hotels closed down and opened as old people's homes, they received grants from the local councils, the hotel nearest us was a dump as a hotel, and failing fast, but this old folks scheme was a bread winner, it filled up with elderly from all over the UK, dumped by as far as we could see uncaring children, one day I was in the garden and an old chap stopped for a chat, he had no idea where he was, he actually came from Sheffield, he had been brought here and left by his family, we had a chat for a while and then said he must get back as if we are late for tea I won't get any, bit strict, he said, nice old chap sadly he died some time later, we often had a chat and cup of tea, his family never came to see him, quite sad really, he had been in the army and at Dunkirk, just to be treated as a nuisance now,

 

[kimdub]

I think it is evil when kids abandon the parents in a tine of need. But there is another side to that. My mother recently passed away at 98. Fiercely independent and in sound mind and relatively good health. My wife and I offered to move back to the States to have her live with us. Absolutely no way. My sister offered her home. Absolutely no way. She had her own friends and social activities. And she always said she raised her kids to have their own life and she was not going to get in the way.

At 96, she took a 2 month road trip to the West Coast. When we questioned her that at her age, she could actually die on such a trip, her response was that she would die doing what she wanted to do.

Here in the local village, there are so many kids that got a college education but never a good job because they don't leave the village because of family obligations. So instead of a career, they get stuck taking care of parents that really aren't that old and fully capable of still taking care of themselves.

So while the system sucks in far too many cases, it is still necessary to look at each individual situation to really know the truth.

 

[jstar]

Yep



[video=youtube;jErJimwom94]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jErJimwom94?start=[170][/video]

Soon I'll be sixty years old, my daddy got sixty-one
Remember life, and then your life becomes a better one
I made a man so happy when I wrote a letter once
I hope my children come and visit once or twice a month

Soon I'll be sixty years old, will I think the world is cold
Or will I have a lot of children who can warm me?
Soon I'll be sixty years old​